Author
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Topic: Distributor gears, which one to use?
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BLstangin Gearhead Posts: 856 From: St. James, MN Registered: Apr 2002
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posted 03-22-2004 11:28 PM
I'm getting a custom cam made for the 306. It will be a hydro roller cam. It will be made of billet steel. The company doing the cam is mme racing. They say that I should run a bronze gear as he knows it won't hurt the cam, but I might be o.k. with a steel gear. He can't say for sure though as he hasn't run many with the steel gears. So is there different grades of billet steel where some can get away with a steel gear and others need bronze, or should I just run a bronze and be done with it. How long does a bronze gear last? This thing is street driven and I need it to last a while on the street. Also I'm running a high volume pump if it makes a difference?------------------ 1970 coupe restored with the help of my dad. 306 with 600 holley, Weiand Stealth intake, headers, Comp cam, harland sharp roller rockers, kb pistons, 10.3:1 compression ratio, pertonix ignitor 2 with matched coil, lakewood bellhousing, 4-speed toploader, and 2.79 open 8" rear. Soon to be 9" 3.50 trac-lok 1986 f-150, 5.0, factory towing package with original c-6 trans
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steve'66 Gearhead Posts: 9835 From: Sonoma,CA,USA Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 03-22-2004 11:46 PM
Run the bronze gear! And check it often. SteveW
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V8 Thumper Gearhead Posts: 4777 From: Phoenix, Arizona Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 03-23-2004 08:47 AM
I don't have any experience with them, but how about Comp Cams' new composite-poly-whatever dist gears? If you read the propaganda, it sounds like a long overdue solution ------------------ 1965 GT coupe, 333ci aluminum headed/solid cammed stroker, four speed, 3.70:1 9" All Blue Oval, no blue bottle http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/V8Thumper.html
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BLstangin Gearhead Posts: 856 From: St. James, MN Registered: Apr 2002
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posted 03-23-2004 08:57 AM
Todd, do you know where I can get one for a ford? I've seen them in summit for a chevy, but not a ford, I might go this way if I can find one for a ford.------------------ 1970 coupe restored with the help of my dad. 306 with 600 holley, Weiand Stealth intake, headers, Comp cam, harland sharp roller rockers, kb pistons, 10.3:1 compression ratio, pertonix ignitor 2 with matched coil, lakewood bellhousing, 4-speed toploader, and 2.79 open 8" rear. Soon to be 9" 3.50 trac-lok 1986 f-150, 5.0, factory towing package with original c-6 trans
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Kellxr7 Gearhead Posts: 700 From: Canada Registered: Mar 2003
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posted 03-23-2004 10:08 AM
quote: Originally posted by steve'66: Run the bronze gear! And check it often. SteveW
Doesnt the bronze one have to be replaced regularly (soft)? I use the hardened steel one & have been checking it regularly, just incase it was getting chewd up & its still like new after a couple thousand miles. All I know for sure is, not to use the cast gear as it will be eaten up within a couple hundred miles. (harsh lesson)
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capri man Gearhead Posts: 8777 From: doerun, ga. Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 03-23-2004 10:19 AM
i got mine here. very knoledgble folks. http://www.southernperformance.com/products.htm------------------ mike r racing is real everything else is just a game. 81 capri-7.33 @92mph 1/8 1.54 60 ft. http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/billswebsite/pg06.html
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Dubz Gearhead Posts: 2005 From: Manitoba Canada Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 03-23-2004 02:06 PM
on the comp website i see pn 35100 for ford, FW Beveled Tooth Gear, fits .530" with beveled tooth?on summit it would be pn CCA-35100 not sure if it is the right size or anything, but it's the only ford one they list
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V8 Thumper Gearhead Posts: 4777 From: Phoenix, Arizona Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 03-23-2004 03:50 PM
quote: Originally posted by BLstangin: Todd, do you know where I can get one for a ford? I've seen them in summit for a chevy, but not a ford, I might go this way if I can find one for a ford.
Give Summit a call, they may have some info on it. Either that, or call Comp direct. I talked to the Comp guys at the Finals in Pomona last November, and they said the new gears for Ford applications were comming shortly. That was several months ago, so I imagine they're available now ------------------ 1965 GT coupe, 333ci aluminum headed/solid cammed stroker, four speed, 3.70:1 9" All Blue Oval, no blue bottle http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/V8Thumper.html
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n2oMike Gearhead Posts: 3058 From: Spencer, WV Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 03-23-2004 04:24 PM
Ford uses steel distributer gears with their hydraulic roller cams.Here's MSD's site that lists their STEEL gears used with hydraulic rollers. http://www.msdignition.com/dist_63.htm The part number for the 351W gear, which has a diameter of 0.531" is 85834 The part number for the 302 gear that is used with a hydraulic roller is 85833 It has a diameter of 0.468" These gears need pressed on, and need installed at just the right height. They usually just have HALF of the roll pin hole drilled. You press it on, then use it as a guide to drill through the rest of the way. Good Luck! ------------------ Mike Burch 66 mustang real street 302 4-speed 289 heads 10.63 @ 129.3 http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367 http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220
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Daniel Jones Gearhead Posts: 972 From: St. Louis, MO Registered: Aug 99
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posted 03-23-2004 04:42 PM
Mike, In discussions with various cam grinders, the Ford gear is cast steel which is compatible with the usual hydraulic roller cam cores but not with the 8620 billet cores used for solid rollers. If BL's core is 8620, he may need to use a bronze gear or perhaps Crane's 8620 gear or Comps polymer gear. Rob McQuarroe claims they've had good success with a anti-friction coated powdered metal gear. I answered a 351C distributor gear question a while back which I'll re-post here. It's geared towards 351C's but may be applicable: > I am eating my distributor gear as most people on the list with solid roller > lifter cams. After 2000 miles it's looking pretty shabby. I called comp cams > to see if their polymer gear was available for a Cleveland. It is for a > Windsor only. Comp cams claims that this new polymer gear does not wear out. There are several options for 351C distributor gears: 1. Cast Iron These are the standard distributor gears used on hydraulic and solid flat tappet camshafts which use iron cores. Not compatible with most hydraulic or solid roller cam steel cores. Some Comp Cams street rollers may be compatible but not necessarily ideal. Note that some cast iron gears from auto parts stores are substantially softer than OEM iron gears. Also note that some cam companies use a harder core for certain race solid flat tappet grinds which may require a bronze (or other material) gear. 2. Cast Steel Compatible with hydraulic roller cam cores and with some street solid roller cores (e.g. -8 Comp Cams street roller cores). P/N M-12390-J (1.421" OD, 0.531" ID) from the FRPP catalog. According to MSD, the Ford mild steel distributor gears (as fitted to engines with factory hydraulic-roller-cams) is softer that the common ductile iron gears, but harder than bronze. MSD also claims that Chevy uses a harder cam core for it's factory hydraulic rollers and uses cast iron gears but that its gears don't last as long as the Ford gears. 3. Bronze-Aluminum Generally softer than iron. Compatible with most cam cores but wears rapidly. A bronze distributor gear is essentially sacrificial, wearing the distributor gear instead of the roller cam gear. Usually specified for solid roller cams. Note that hardness can vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. If running one of these gears, you may want to run an oil filter without a bypass so the filter catches the wear particles. On a 351C, consider using Purolator oil filter number L30119. It's a full size replacement for the FL-1A Ford/PH8A Fram filter. It has no bypass spring in the middle but it does have the rubber flapper for anti-drainback. The original application is for a 1978 Nissan 510, 2.0L 4 cyl engine (L20B) which had the bypass valve in the engine block. This filter cross-references to a Fram PH2850, a Motorcraft FL-181, and a Wix 51452. However, those filters have not been verified and may have a bypass. It appears after 1978, Nissan went to a half height filter. Purolator part number L22167 fits that application and does not have the bypass spring but does have the rubber flapper for anti-drainback. Race engines may want to run dual filters. 4. Machined 8620 Steel A harder steel gear designed specifically for compatability with 8620 steel solid roller cam cores. Mike Trusty ran one of these and turned it to powder in just a few miles. Asa Jay runs one and has reported no problems yet. 5. Powdered Metal Composite with Anti-Friction Coating Available for the 351C from Rob McQuarrie of Blue Oval Performance in Colorado. He reports success using them on all cam cores. 6. Mallory Gear Mallory makes a gear for their distributors that is made for "austempered ductile iron billets" and "proferal billet" cams. It is supposed to be compatible with the Comp Cams austempered iron cam cores. As I understand it, the gear is heat-treated for compatibility. More on the cam gear hardness problem. A few years back, Steve Grossen ruined several cams and gears on a 351W which led him to Rockwell (B scale) test several distributor gears. A generic auto parts cast iron gear tested at 70, the bronze gear at 90, and the stock Ford gear was 102. Note that the soft bronze gear was harder than the generic auto parts cast iron gear. Steve eventually traced his trouble to a batch of cam cores with improperly machined gears (Comp doesn't check each gear, only a statistical sampling). Comp replaced the cams and eventually gave him one with the "NASCAR" treatment" (filed, wire brushed on a wire wheel, and bead blasted). Steve supplied some notes and photos of his ordeal which can be viewed at Dave William's website: http://www.bacomatic.org/~dw/sgdist/sgdist.htm > http://store.summitracing.com/product.asp?d=11&s=69&p=4611&searchtype=ecat > Buy it, and be done with it. It's not that simple. Not by a longshot. > I'm running one of these on the Mach I, with a roller cam. I'm up to I > think my third oil change. That's like going on 10K miles. I've not > checked the gear since new, but I've not encountered any timing problems > yet either (knock on wood). What's your cam core material and hardening? If I were you, I'd pull the distributor and check the cam gear and the distributor gear. The gear can be wear a fair bit before you notice any timing problems. > The whole gear is bigger around on the Cleveland. 1.249" OD for Windsor, 1.421" OD for Cleveland. You can't swap cams either as the Cleveland journals are larger. You might be able to have the gear machined away and replaced with one of a compatible material and surface treatment. > Thanks Asa, however I was told by Comp Cams that I cannot run a steel gear > with my camshaft. Sounds like you have a -8 street roller. > I guess I better buy a stack of distributor gears and keep them handy. > In my application I only use the gear for driving the oil pump so accuracy > isn't a problem. But if the gear stop turning I will lose my oil pressure. > I am using the electromotive ignition. If you are running a Comp Cams street solid roller grind, it may be a -8 austempered ductile iron core (the wilder grinds are 8620 steel). The surface treatment hardens the cam lobes so they can run a roller lifter. Comp claims the -8 cores are compatible with either a cast iron or cast steel distributor gear, with a cast steel gear being the better choice. Not compatible are machined steel gears like the Crane gear that Asa Jay mentioned. I have noticed in the latest Ford Motorsports catalog that there is a new listing for a cast steel 351C distributor gear. Comp said that was the preferred gear for their -8 cores. No matter what gear you use, make sure the gear is in the proper location. A replacement distributor gear may or may not have a holed drilled in it. Ford cautions that the hole should not be used for alignment purposes. Position the gear to the proper location, then drill a new hole 90 degree to the old hole. Dykem the contact pattern. Pull and inspect gear after a while. Make sure the gear is not bottoming out and binding and that the oil pump driveshaft isn't too long. MSD recommends using a moly lube to break-in the cam/distributor gears. They say squirting it on the gear is insufficient and suggest using a toothbrush to work it into the pores of the metal. Dan Jones
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BLstangin Gearhead Posts: 856 From: St. James, MN Registered: Apr 2002
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posted 03-24-2004 04:03 PM
I called the cam grinder again and he uses 8620 billet steel, he uses the 8620 whether it is hydro or solid, he claims it just doesn't wear out. So how does the $340 it's going to cost just for the cam sound? It will be custom made to fit my car like a glove! I don't think it sounds to bad considering the type of steel he uses and it being custom.------------------ 1970 coupe restored with the help of my dad. 306 with 600 holley, Weiand Stealth intake, headers, Comp cam, harland sharp roller rockers, kb pistons, 10.3:1 compression ratio, pertonix ignitor 2 with matched coil, lakewood bellhousing, 4-speed toploader, and 2.79 open 8" rear. Soon to be 9" 3.50 trac-lok 1986 f-150, 5.0, factory towing package with original c-6 trans
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Tea'sGrabber Gearhead Posts: 276 From: Seattle, Wash. Registered: Feb 2003
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posted 03-24-2004 05:19 PM
I've been running a bronze gear on my car for 7 years..... Use one...just make sure it is set up right.... ------------------ Todd 71 Mav Grabber All orig 306 cu.in. Cast Iron heads. Carillo Rods.Best et. 10.71 @ 124 thru the mufflers. http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/MembersPics/TeasGrabber.html
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cracing Gearhead Posts: 640 From: Saltillo Miss. USA Registered: Jan 2002
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posted 03-24-2004 07:07 PM
Pay CLOSE attention to the last paragraph in Dan's post. I know of two blocks that were ruined by a replacement dist gear with the pin hole in the wrong place. It was only slightly off but was enough that when you tightened down the dist. it caused the gear to bind against the boss on block wearing it severely & cracking the block at the thin area.
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n2oMike Gearhead Posts: 3058 From: Spencer, WV Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 03-24-2004 08:20 PM
Personally, I'd just install a solid, flat tappet cam and not worry about it. my $0.02 ------------------ Mike Burch 66 mustang real street 302 4-speed 289 heads 10.63 @ 129.3 http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367 http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220
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stroker man Gearhead Posts: 404 From: Denville NJ USA Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 03-24-2004 09:16 PM
i had a bronze gear on my old 408w with hy roller it blew out on me going about 75 mph pretty dam scary i'll tell ya didnt know what was happening thought it was the msd going until i tried to fire it up on the side of the highway and boom biggest backfire you ever heard, now comp says they have cast iron gears on the hy roller which is ok for the cast gear on the msd, who knows my engine builder drilled a hole in the block somewhere he said would help get oil. any body know the real story on these cam gears.
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BLstangin Gearhead Posts: 856 From: St. James, MN Registered: Apr 2002
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posted 03-24-2004 09:19 PM
To late to go solid flat, I already ordered everything. How do you PROPERLY set up a distributor gear?------------------ 1970 coupe restored with the help of my dad. 306 with 600 holley, Weiand Stealth intake, headers, Comp cam, harland sharp roller rockers, kb pistons, 10.3:1 compression ratio, pertonix ignitor 2 with matched coil, lakewood bellhousing, 4-speed toploader, and 2.79 open 8" rear. Soon to be 9" 3.50 trac-lok 1986 f-150, 5.0, factory towing package with original c-6 trans
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Tea'sGrabber Gearhead Posts: 276 From: Seattle, Wash. Registered: Feb 2003
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posted 03-25-2004 10:41 AM
BL..... It is a bitch to do... My suggestion is to buy the gear from MSD and send it and the dizzy to them.. They will press the gear on for you..They did mine for me when I bought it and as I said I have had no problems and very little wear.... It was like 20 bucks +gear+shipping!!!!------------------ Todd 71 Mav Grabber All orig 306 cu.in. Cast Iron heads. Carillo Rods.Best et. 10.71 @ 124 thru the mufflers. http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/MembersPics/TeasGrabber.html
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BLstangin Gearhead Posts: 856 From: St. James, MN Registered: Apr 2002
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posted 03-25-2004 11:07 AM
I'd do that, but I like a challenge, so does anyone know the proper way to do it yourself. I like to be able to say that I did it myself, and if I ever need to do on a quick basis I will have the knowledge to do it.------------------ 1970 coupe restored with the help of my dad. 306 with 600 holley, Weiand Stealth intake, headers, Comp cam, harland sharp roller rockers, kb pistons, 10.3:1 compression ratio, pertonix ignitor 2 with matched coil, lakewood bellhousing, 4-speed toploader, and 2.79 open 8" rear. Soon to be 9" 3.50 trac-lok 1986 f-150, 5.0, factory towing package with original c-6 trans
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steve'66 Gearhead Posts: 9835 From: Sonoma,CA,USA Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 03-25-2004 11:09 AM
quote: Originally posted by BLstangin: To late to go solid flat, I already ordered everything. How do you PROPERLY set up a distributor gear?
As posted by Dan, "No matter what gear you use, make sure the gear is in the proper location. A replacement distributor gear may or may not have a holed drilled in it. Ford cautions that the hole should not be used for alignment purposes. Position the gear to the proper location, then drill a new hole 90 degree to the old hole. Dykem the contact pattern. Pull and inspect gear after a while. Make sure the gear is not bottoming out and binding and that the oil pump driveshaft isn't too long. MSD recommends using a moly lube to break-in the cam/distributor gears. They say squirting it on the gear is insufficient and suggest using a toothbrush to work it into the pores of the metal" Also Comp's bronze gear comes with an instruction sheet with the proper dimension from the gear to the base of the distributor. Mine has been running two years now with no appreciable wear. Good luck, SteveW
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Tea'sGrabber Gearhead Posts: 276 From: Seattle, Wash. Registered: Feb 2003
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posted 03-25-2004 02:53 PM
Bl.... ok..... The MSD gear has instructions with it.... You're going to need a torch and a hydraulic press... That gear isn't going on there by hand... Good luck!------------------ Todd 71 Mav Grabber All orig 306 cu.in. Cast Iron heads. Carillo Rods.Best et. 10.71 @ 124 thru the mufflers. http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/MembersPics/TeasGrabber.html
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BLstangin Gearhead Posts: 856 From: St. James, MN Registered: Apr 2002
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posted 03-25-2004 03:47 PM
O.k. my dad works at John Deere, so I have access to all sorts of cool tools. So what brand gear is the best? Is MSD the most wear resistant, or is there a better one?------------------ 1970 coupe restored with the help of my dad. 306 with 600 holley, Weiand Stealth intake, headers, Comp cam, harland sharp roller rockers, kb pistons, 10.3:1 compression ratio, pertonix ignitor 2 with matched coil, lakewood bellhousing, 4-speed toploader, and 2.79 open 8" rear. Soon to be 9" 3.50 trac-lok 1986 f-150, 5.0, factory towing package with original c-6 trans
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capri man Gearhead Posts: 8777 From: doerun, ga. Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 03-26-2004 04:35 PM
ok, the old gear is very easy to get off with a bearing press. (after removing the pin) then simply set both gears on a very flat smooth surface. run a small drill bit through the holes in the old one and let it hit the new one and you have a mark for one of the holes in the new one. install the new gear,(useing the bearing press) lining up the one hole you drilled with the hole in the dist shaft. then run a drill bit through the new hole and the shaft and out the other side of the new gear. install pin!! i have the exact measurments in a file if you would like me to e-mail it to you. i would post it here but i aint got enough sense to do that!! good luck------------------ mike r racing is real everything else is just a game. 81 capri-7.33 @92mph 1/8 1.54 60 ft. http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/billswebsite/pg06.html
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BLstangin Gearhead Posts: 856 From: St. James, MN Registered: Apr 2002
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posted 03-26-2004 05:46 PM
MIke, I would really appreciate it if you would e-mail me the exact measurements, Thanks Brandon. [email protected]------------------ 1970 coupe restored with the help of my dad. 306 with 600 holley, Weiand Stealth intake, headers, Comp cam, harland sharp roller rockers, kb pistons, 10.3:1 compression ratio, pertonix ignitor 2 with matched coil, lakewood bellhousing, 4-speed toploader, and 2.79 open 8" rear. Soon to be 9" 3.50 trac-lok 1986 f-150, 5.0, factory towing package with original c-6 trans
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JCQuinn@work Gearhead Posts: 998 From: Lakewood, CO, USA Registered: Jun 2001
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posted 03-26-2004 06:04 PM
I guess ignorance is bliss. I have put bronze gears on several distributors without a press or torch or measurements. I have never had a failure or a problem with any of them. If you don't know how delicate an operation is it must be easier to get it right.
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steve'66 Gearhead Posts: 9835 From: Sonoma,CA,USA Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 03-26-2004 06:19 PM
John,Me too, just a vice and a lead hammer. SteveW
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capri man Gearhead Posts: 8777 From: doerun, ga. Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 03-26-2004 07:10 PM
oh yea, i have done that many times also!! the press just makes it so much easier when you miss the hole a little and have to take it off and start over!! ------------------ mike r racing is real everything else is just a game. 81 capri-7.33 @92mph 1/8 1.54 60 ft. http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/billswebsite/pg06.html
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Fastymz Moderator Posts: 22791 From: Reno Nv M&M #1240 Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 03-26-2004 07:17 PM
quote: Originally posted by capri man: just makes it so much easier when you miss the hole a little and have to take it off and start over!!
Missing the hole already and such a young guy too. ------------------ SCOOP oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs 65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics
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capri man Gearhead Posts: 8777 From: doerun, ga. Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 03-26-2004 08:28 PM
i knew something was coming from SCOOP when i reread my post! ------------------ mike r racing is real everything else is just a game. 81 capri-7.33 @92mph 1/8 1.54 60 ft. http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/billswebsite/pg06.html
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BLstangin Gearhead Posts: 856 From: St. James, MN Registered: Apr 2002
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posted 03-26-2004 08:42 PM
Thanks a bunch Mike I got your e-mail, it helped me out a lot. Oh ya, of course scoop has something dirty to say, he hasn't matured yet! ------------------ 1970 coupe restored with the help of my dad. 306 with 600 holley, Weiand Stealth intake, headers, Comp cam, harland sharp roller rockers, kb pistons, 10.3:1 compression ratio, pertonix ignitor 2 with matched coil, lakewood bellhousing, 4-speed toploader, and 2.79 open 8" rear. Soon to be 9" 3.50 trac-lok 1986 f-150, 5.0, factory towing package with original c-6 trans
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capri man Gearhead Posts: 8777 From: doerun, ga. Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 03-26-2004 09:27 PM
i may grow old but i will NEVER grow up!!!------------------ mike r racing is real everything else is just a game. 81 capri-7.33 @92mph 1/8 1.54 60 ft. http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/billswebsite/pg06.html
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