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Author
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Topic: Pro Topline Head Info
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n2oMike
Gearhead Posts: 2680
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 02-11-2004 07:15 PM
   
Flowcharts, pictures, etc...http://www.stangpro.com/html/projects/84gt_files/cyclone/cyclone-intro.html Good Luck! ------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220
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grandestang
Gearhead Posts: 375
From: Lake Bluff, Illinois USA
Registered: Jan 2003
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posted 02-11-2004 07:25 PM
Wow, that is very impressive. I can't believe the 180's outflowed the AFR 185s. Hmmm this is a very interesting new prospect for my project. Thanks for sharing!  Paul ------------------
1970 Grande
H code 351W FMX
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 1888
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 02-11-2004 07:38 PM
be wary as those are still "advertized numbers", independant flowbench testing may yield different resultslooks as though the bowls have been cleaned up in those pictures some, not an "as cast", wonder if that is how them come to everyone? [This message has been edited by Dubz (edited 02-11-2004).]
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 6395
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 02-11-2004 08:47 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Dubz:
looks as though the bowls have been cleaned up in those pictures some, not an "as cast", wonder if that is how them come to everyone?
Yeah Dubz, we all know you are cynical of them and don't beleive any of their numbers. Fine, go buy some AFR's and be just like every other 5 OH on the planet.  Since I have actually had heads from this company in my hands, and touched them with my grinder when they were fresh out of the box, I can honestly say Pro Topline heads are the "cleanest" non-CNC ported heads (AFR heads are CNC ported, not a fair comparison) you will find, period. That 10 minutes (probably actually not even that much time) worth of grinding on those bowls sure isn't what I would consider "ported" or even really cleaned up. And I would doubt if it altered the flow of them by any significant amount.
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indyphil
Gearhead Posts: 2690
From: Senoia, G.A. USA
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 02-11-2004 08:50 PM
Thanks Mike,
Its great info.I think they look great. For me - im interested in an iron set for lower cost and lower maintanence. Ive got plenty of time so i will wait and see what people find on the dyno. The numbers combined with the 180cc port are very promising though. ------------------
'68 coupe 289 C code
66 heads, edel 600cfm carb, performer intake, dual exhaust http://www.geocities.com/ottouk_77/68mustang.htm
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indyphil
Gearhead Posts: 2690
From: Senoia, G.A. USA
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 02-11-2004 08:53 PM
Dubz,
im not seeing any clean up work?
Which picture do you see that in?
I see that they have run a cutting tool into them during manufacture but I dont see any hand clean up? ------------------
'68 coupe 289 C code
66 heads, edel 600cfm carb, performer intake, dual exhaust http://www.geocities.com/ottouk_77/68mustang.htm
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 1888
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 02-11-2004 09:31 PM
in my research i found a bunch of people that were unhappy with them is all, i do not have any experience with them, so don't take my word for anything. Just do your research before you commit big money like that to a head.------------------
1974 Gran Torino (351W/c6)
My Page
Mustang&Fords suggested a Torino restomod, but i have yet to see one...so i'm building one
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 6395
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 02-11-2004 09:58 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Dubz:
in my research ....
And the wonderful thing about the internet is, if you look very hard at all you can find people that are unhappy with any product. I can point you to a site right now where I know for a fact you will find guys that complain about Carillo rods, Crower cranks, and anything else you can think of. Someone will have had a bad experiance with it and therefore they will spout off to anyone who will listen about what crap that product is. Just because some folks with unknown credibilty complain about it does not mean it is an inferior product, no matter what the product is. Even if some of the guys complaining are so called "professional" engine builders, that does not add instant credibility. I have met some "professional" engine builders I wouldn't trust to change spark plugs in my lawn mower. So I don't hold much credence in the opinions of "unkown" experts.
The best bet is to find someone first hand, not online, that has had experiance with whatever product you are contemplating buying. Then you can judge from thier experiance, and not wonder if the folks badmouthing anything have other problems (like being a moron in general.) Have a nice day. 
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 26811
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 02-11-2004 10:04 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Dubz:
in my research i found a bunch of people that were unhappy with them is all, i do not have any experience with them,
Don't get me started.
------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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Mpcoluv
Gearhead Posts: 1333
From: Charlotte NC usa
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 02-12-2004 07:02 AM
FWIW the Pro topline 180cc heads I have seen and held in my hands looked to have a cartridge roll cleanup in the bowl/short turn area. Apparently they came this way from the factory. As Kid states, the castings look great visually. I will check to see if my friend had flowed them yet.
For those of you who live in the frozen north and want Iron heads, You really don't have much in the way of choices. Roush 180/200 heads from world which typically are very rough out of the box (but work fine after cleaning up the casting flash) and the Pro Toplines.
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CometGT1974
Gearhead Posts: 412
From: Asheville, NC USA
Registered: Jan 2002
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posted 02-12-2004 09:05 AM
quote:
Originally posted by kid vishus:
And the wonderful thing about the internet is, if you look very hard at all you can find people that are unhappy with any product.
Kinda like MPG head service!! 
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 1888
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 02-12-2004 03:01 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Mpcoluv:
...For those of you who live in the frozen north and want Iron heads, You really don't have much in the way of choices. Roush 180/200 heads from world which typically are very rough out of the box (but work fine after cleaning up the casting flash) and the Pro Toplines.
yah, it sucks.  alex, are you upset with what i said? i was under the impression you were not fond of the pro toplines
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 6395
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 02-12-2004 06:27 PM
quote:
Originally posted by CometGT1974:
Kinda like MPG head service!!
The difference there is that the majority of folks who have dealt with them don't like them.
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 26811
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 02-12-2004 07:25 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Dubz:
yah, it sucks. alex, are you upset with what i said? i was under the impression you were not fond of the pro toplines
Naw, not upset really. Just tired of internet "he said she said" stuff.
Half these guys spouting flow figures and numbers don't even have a race car.
All of their "research" is done with a keyboard and most of their knowledge is based on quotes for some other microsoft mechanic. Pro Top Line product is not particularly my first choice, but I have nothing derrogetory to say about them either. ------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 1888
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 02-12-2004 11:38 PM
well i had been talking to a dealer of the pro toplines, someone who seemed to know what they were talking about, sorry for the "he said, she said" stuff.so anyways, he said.....  ------------------
1974 Gran Torino (351W/c6)
My Page
Mustang&Fords suggested a Torino restomod, but i have yet to see one...so i'm building one
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Buster
Gearhead Posts: 1553
From: Hurricane alley
Registered: May 2002
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posted 02-14-2004 08:29 PM
quote:
Originally posted by kid vishus:
I can honestly say Pro Topline heads are the "cleanest" non-CNC ported heads (AFR heads are CNC ported, not a fair comparison) you will find, period. That 10 minutes (probably actually not even that much time) worth of grinding on those bowls sure isn't what I would consider "ported" or even really cleaned up. And I would doubt if it altered the flow of them by any significant amount.
I would agree, I had to do quite a bit of bowl work on my Victor Jr's and I can tell by looking at those pic's that they didn't have as much to do as I did to get to the same point. You can tell they are nice castings out of the box.
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motorcitymustang
Journeyman Posts: 10
From: Sterling Heights, MI
Registered: Feb 2004
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posted 02-24-2004 04:14 PM
Thanks for posting the link here Mike!Just so everyone knows who's doing this testing.......I'm no engine expert. Just another guy, like most of you, lookin' for some additional hp. If these don't flow what the adverstised numbers claim, you'll hear about it. I'm in the process of lining up testing now but it's getting tough to get into the local shops with spring coming. I've got nothing to gain by making these guys look good though so you'll get my honest opinion and true data. The small amount of bowl work you see is typical for the alum castings. They'll ship this way. Pro Topline is currently working their way towards minimizing any ridge at the seat and bowl and they're sneaking the casting up on that little by little. The hand touch up will continue until they get it where they want it. I do know one user that purchased iron heads actually having a pronounced ridge there but it didn't take much to clean up. I hope to have the heads in for independent flow numbers end of this week/early next. Assembly parts are already on the way and we'll be doing a DIY head assembly article as part of the series. ------------------
Sean M
Project Resurrection - StangPRO.com
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motorcitymustang
Journeyman Posts: 10
From: Sterling Heights, MI
Registered: Feb 2004
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posted 02-24-2004 04:17 PM
I should add I have to agree w/ kid vishus on the quality of the casting. Except for a small ridge in the exhuast port (that falls away in the direction of flow) they're almost to nice to touch w/ a roll. I'll likely post a poll on what readers would like me to do. It's hard for me to not at least run a cartridge roll thru that exhaust port and maybe gasket match the head but if most want to see them installed out of the box that's what I'll do. Watch for a poll on the stangpro forum or email me at [email protected] with your thoughts.
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 1888
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 02-24-2004 04:26 PM
I'd like to see out of the box performance, as well as with a mild clean up/port match
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motorcitymustang
Journeyman Posts: 10
From: Sterling Heights, MI
Registered: Feb 2004
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posted 02-24-2004 09:36 PM
Ok...cool...one vote for out of the box. It might be awhile before I'm eagre to yank 'em back off the car though since it's my driver. Too be honest........I don't know that I'd even touch the intake side if it was just cleanup I wanted to do. W/ the little bit of bowl work they do to blend the seat it doesn't really need anything. ------------------
Sean M
Project Resurrection - StangPRO.com
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grandestang
Gearhead Posts: 375
From: Lake Bluff, Illinois USA
Registered: Jan 2003
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posted 02-24-2004 10:26 PM
quote:
Originally posted by motorcitymustang:
Ok...cool...one vote for out of the box. It might be awhile before I'm eagre to yank 'em back off the car though since it's my driver. Too be honest........I don't know that I'd even touch the intake side if it was just cleanup I wanted to do. W/ the little bit of bowl work they do to blend the seat it doesn't really need anything.
Hey Sean, did they sell the heads to you fully assembled? If not how much money did it take to fully assemble the heads from teh bare castings? I am just trying to see what the final cost of these heads would end up to be with the bare castings + all the valvetrain components. Or if anyone else knows, how much does it take to make a bare casting into a fully assembled head? Thanks, Paul ------------------
1970 Grande
H code 351W FMX
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Mpcoluv
Gearhead Posts: 1333
From: Charlotte NC usa
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 02-25-2004 07:47 AM
The latest (just got it in the mail yesterday) MM&FF has the final "race" windsor head test on a 427W.
The 215cc Protopline heads did fine especially since they were in the wrong group. All the other heads were CNC race heads in the 225cc range.
While the Pro heads were outclassed by the high dollar CNC heads, it does seem like they have a good bit of potential especially for the money.
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motorcitymustang
Journeyman Posts: 10
From: Sterling Heights, MI
Registered: Feb 2004
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posted 02-25-2004 09:50 AM
grandestang........I received my heads bare. But wanted them that way since the intention from the start was to do an assembly and hardware choice article. I'll be working on that next piece very soon. I've purchased the majority of my hardware from Competition Products in WI. http://www.competitionproducts.com . I'd highly recommend them. I will have approx. $300 in assembly pieces once finished. I could have easily reduced that by using 7? locks and retainers and less expensive springs but, while I'll show where I saved money, I don't skimp too much on valvetrain stuff. Mpcoluv...I was disappointed that MMFF included them in that grouping but, like you, was impressed with how they did considering the competition. ------------------
Sean M
Project Resurrection - StangPRO.com
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Mpcoluv
Gearhead Posts: 1333
From: Charlotte NC usa
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 02-25-2004 02:55 PM
quote:
Originally posted by motorcitymustang:
Mpcoluv...I was disappointed that MMFF included them in that grouping but, like you, was impressed with how they did considering the competition.
Those guys care about selling a story, not necessarily having valid comparisons. I am sure that they got the Pro-Toplines later than the other heads and just tested them when they could. [This message has been edited by Mpcoluv (edited 02-25-2004).]
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Capri
Gearhead Posts: 1595
From: Lyons, ILL, USA M&M member #007... the secret agent member
Registered: May 99
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posted 02-25-2004 06:52 PM
Actually, from what I am famalier with MM/FF is they get whatever they can from a manufacture for free with the promise of doing a story on the product. I cant say wether or not all parts recieved get stories done on them. Evan Smith from MM/FF would have to become a M&M member and tell you that.
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Mpcoluv
Gearhead Posts: 1333
From: Charlotte NC usa
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 02-25-2004 07:29 PM
Having a regular MM&FF, PHR, etc writer as a good friend, I can tell you that the writers generally get the parts for free. This is cheap publicity for the manufacturer if the products turn out to be good.
It takes quite a lot of work to do a magazine story and these guys that you envy for the free parts barely make a decent living. MM&FF DOES pay Westech a weekly fee to build engiens, dyno test, etc....
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motorcitymustang
Journeyman Posts: 10
From: Sterling Heights, MI
Registered: Feb 2004
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posted 02-28-2004 01:10 PM
We've got our independent flow data on the 180s. Big thanks to Modern Cylinder HeadFor now I've got the initial numbers posted in our forums here: http://www.stangpro.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=news;action=display;num=1077909837 I'm already working on the next article section and should have that posted in the next couple of days. They did quite well I think. Hit 260 by .500". ------------------
Sean M
Project Resurrection - StangPRO.com
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 1888
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 02-28-2004 06:25 PM
nice numbers!!
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Helping Hands
Journeyman Posts: 41
From: Salem,OR
Registered: Jul 2003
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posted 02-28-2004 08:46 PM
Here is some "VERY HELPFUL" info on Pro Topline heads if it's true,wich it looks to be from reading about it at other sites.
http://drr.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=3476075&f=80760912&m=280600796[This message has been edited by Helping Hands (edited 02-28-2004).]
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motorcitymustang
Journeyman Posts: 10
From: Sterling Heights, MI
Registered: Feb 2004
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posted 02-28-2004 09:23 PM
The rumors are true. Not exactly as worded. I won't go into details but we deal directly w/ Peter Hill too and it's as stated in the above thread. They hope it will smooth over in the coming weeks. They're still moving the product that's already here in the states. I just hope things smooth out soon enough to not create a big window of demand.------------------
Sean M
Project Resurrection - StangPRO.com
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 26811
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 02-28-2004 10:19 PM
As I always say....BUY AMERICAN! ------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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motorcitymustang
Journeyman Posts: 10
From: Sterling Heights, MI
Registered: Feb 2004
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posted 03-01-2004 03:43 PM
Part two of the article is now posted. Link on the main StangPRO home page.Part two is a work-in-progress. There will be additional data coming but I wanted to get this portion posted for everyone. ------------------
Sean M
Project Resurrection - StangPRO.com
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Mpcoluv
Gearhead Posts: 1333
From: Charlotte NC usa
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 03-01-2004 06:33 PM
As far as the flow figures go, the 180cc Pro Topline heads look great.
Someone needs to test them back to back with another proven performer head, like the AFR 185cc head on a dyno or a drag strip situation.
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motorcitymustang
Journeyman Posts: 10
From: Sterling Heights, MI
Registered: Feb 2004
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posted 03-02-2004 10:31 AM
I've got a buddy putting the wraps on his car this season. VERY similar combo to mine but Edelbrock RPM heads. He's got same trans, cam, intake, carb, exhuast. He's got less gear but more compression (2249 pop-ups). Will be interesting to see the differences.------------------
Sean M
Project Resurrection - StangPRO.com
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motorcitymustang
Journeyman Posts: 10
From: Sterling Heights, MI
Registered: Feb 2004
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posted 03-24-2004 03:24 PM
The continuation of Part II is posted. We take a closer look at port measurements, volumes, etc.http://www.stangpro.com Final assembly is coming soon!
------------------
Sean M
Project Resurrection - StangPRO.com
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motorcitymustang
Journeyman Posts: 10
From: Sterling Heights, MI
Registered: Feb 2004
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posted 07-29-2004 11:13 PM
Our final installment before testing is posted. Follow along as we assemble the Cyclones and ready them for installation.http://www.stangpro.com
Dyno and track testing coming soon!
------------------
Sean M
Project Resurrection - StangPRO.com
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CHIPSBAD67
Gearhead Posts: 396
From: LOU,KY;USA
Registered: Sep 2003
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posted 08-01-2004 11:45 PM
afr makes great heads, but you only want them bare. the stuff they stick on them if you get them assembled is junk, thats a fact. but they are great, and yes its not fair that they come cnc'd, just the way i like it...not fair. i dont port heads, dont own a flow bench or the money to buys these heads to compare them in my 1.5 car garage. dont know anything about the pro toplines except i know a guy with a chevy and he likes them. also think it speaks for itself when people are comparing heads with afr. the iron vs. alluminum debate is old and beat to death.------------------
306, 4speed, 4.11's....best 1/8 mile 7.58 at 92mph with 1.72 60ft. PUMP GAS/NO ADDERS/STREET TIRES
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