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Author
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Topic: Building a roundy-rounder motor
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rustang@home
Gearhead Posts: 134
From: Clarion, PA
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted 02-07-2004 07:57 PM
  
A guy at work wants me to build a windsor for his dirt track car. Probably the biggest rules for the motor are the heads must be unported cast iron and the intake an Edelbrock Performer. Cubic inch limit is 410. I've got 3k to play with  The track is a 3/8 mile banked clay oval with very short straights. So I'm wondering if a 347 might be better so there's less weight over the nose? How reliable are the cheaper 347 kits out there? I'm thinking of going with the Roush heads.
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 9476
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 02-07-2004 08:38 PM
Why give up 53 cubic inches? Build a 408w with the best cast iron heads you can find.  SteveW
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rustang@home
Gearhead Posts: 134
From: Clarion, PA
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted 02-07-2004 08:56 PM
I'm concerned that running on a small track the lighter weight on the front of the car may be more of an advantage than the bigger hp  For example, a few years ago there was a guy running a Ford 300 six in a limited late model at a small local dirt track. He was running against all 406 roller-cammed, aluminum headed chebbies and actually won a couple features and was competitive every weekend. I never would have believed it if I didn't see it myself!
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 26811
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 02-07-2004 09:02 PM
Big inch with "N" FoMoCo heads.
I also have a pretty nice solid cam pick for a 390-410 inch dizzy deal with restricted induction. ------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com [This message has been edited by Moneymaker (edited 02-07-2004).]
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 6395
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 02-07-2004 10:31 PM
Are they limited as to what carb they can use? A lot of classes require a 500 cfm Holley 2v. Does the track normally get dry-slick, or does it stay tacky? If it stays tacky most of the time, a big inch motor will work better. But if it gets dry-slick, a big inch motor will be hard to drive and will be prone to "blowing the tires off" coming off the corners. My cousin runs a limited late model in Iowa. The track they primarily run is a flat 1/2 mile that is notorious for getting slick. They run a 357 inch windsor with ported World products heads. They have finished in the top 5 two years in a row now. The smaller motors tend to not make as much torque thereby not spinning as easily when driving off the corners. However, when the track is tacky, he has problems with the guys that have big motors (400+ inches). 
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Mpcoluv
Gearhead Posts: 1333
From: Charlotte NC usa
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 02-08-2004 08:55 AM
Any cast iron heads? Is epoxy allowed?
You could run a Big bore Dart block 8.2 and have 375 inches or so with a 4.185 bore nad 3.4 stroke. The odd 8.7" deck block would allow you to get closer to 400 inches.
Of course this would shoot your budget.
Alex and many others mention the N351 heads, but I never see anyone actually using them....
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cracing
Gearhead Posts: 428
From: Saltillo Miss. USA
Registered: Jan 2002
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posted 02-08-2004 01:42 PM
Pay close attention to what KV said. If you dont listen, you may as well not even start.
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 26811
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 02-08-2004 01:55 PM
FYIPast 4 years D.I.R.T champs all had 427 inch motors.
Kuntz & Co. has built the championship engines last 2.
Bill Frey runs 427 inch Kuntz SBF's.
Other big name guy (can't remember at the moment) had Keith Kraft 427 inch SBF. Just an FYI.
You bring along parts and knowledge to tune the car for track conditions. You either have the horsepower to win or you don't.
End of story. PS,
This little tidbit comes to you from the SantaFe Speedway sportsman track champion engine builder, 1980, '81, and '82!
Then were were told we cannot return for the 83 season with a FoMoCo.  (true story) RIP Jeff Elder ------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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rustang@home
Gearhead Posts: 134
From: Clarion, PA
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted 02-08-2004 08:07 PM
Carburator is 750 vacuum secondary max with Performer RPM or any aluminum intake with "factory part number" hmmmm I'm going to talk to a couple guys running at the track to get their opinions on track conditions. I think the track is typically slick. I do know they say you're "turning all the time", like it's a big circle with very short straights. Here's a link to the track rules:
http://www.hummingbirdspeedway.com
(Notice they conveniently have a 406 limit ala Chebby  Alex, I'd be interested in your cam selection, and that story about getting booted from your track.
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n2oMike
Gearhead Posts: 2680
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 02-08-2004 08:30 PM
From the site...Engine/Drivetrain
9. Maximum engine size is 406 cubic inches. Furthest forward spark plug may not be any further set back than the center of the upper ball joint in the front suspension. No aluminum heads. No oil dry sumps. Engines can be pumped both internally and externally at any time. Refusing to allow any type of inspection will result in automatic disqualification.
10. Roller rockers are permitted. No roller cams or lifters. Gas only; no alcohol. No electric fuel pumps. Any piston permitted.
11. Stock two or four-barrel carburetor (750 max) with vacuum secondary. Two or four barrel cast iron or aluminum intake must have manufacturer?s part number. Edelbrock Performer or Torker II also allowed. Gasket matching allowed only 1/2 inch into port. Plenum must remain stock. No modifications to ventury or throttle bore. No porting or polishing of the intakes or heads. No more than one inch spacer between carburetor and intake.
12. Stock rears only. Ford 9 inch rear permitted. Rears may be locked. No floaters. No adjustable trailing arms permitted. No Hymes ends permitted.
13. Stock clutches only, and stock transmission with working reverse. No trick clutch automatic transmission. Scatter shield mandatory. Must provide means for inspection. Automatics must have torque converter, and full scatter shield. Steel flywheel only.
14. Headers with a maximum 3 inch exhaust exiting past driver's compartment.
I'd use the Torker II on a 351W! The Torker II 351W isn't a bad intake at all. You are allowed a 'stock' 750 Vacuum carb. A 750 vacuum Speed Demon (which flows more than 750cfm, and is relatively cheap) would be a good choice for the carb. I'd look into those Pro-Topline heads. Good Luck!
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Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 6395
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 02-08-2004 09:01 PM
Those rules leave a lot of room to work (there are a lot of loopholes.) We were really REALLY good at finding loopholes in rules (if it doesn't say you can't do it, then it must be legal.  )
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cracing
Gearhead Posts: 428
From: Saltillo Miss. USA
Registered: Jan 2002
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posted 02-08-2004 09:34 PM
What I'm saying is, on dirt if you cant get it to the ground, you aint gonna do ****. Fry Daddy does get his sponsered unlimited motor to the ground plus he can drive.There are what they call Spec. motors with a weight break & more rear spoiler that run against the unlimiteds & they win occasionally.
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rustang@home
Gearhead Posts: 134
From: Clarion, PA
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted 02-08-2004 09:34 PM
Mike, I'm kinda studying that "aluminum intake must have manufacturer's part number" and thinking a ford motorsport Vic Jr. might be "legal". I guess I shouldn't rule out the TII, though.
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cracing
Gearhead Posts: 428
From: Saltillo Miss. USA
Registered: Jan 2002
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posted 02-08-2004 10:03 PM
I see where it says you must run stock rear only, this must be a class where a stock type chassis is used & no jig chassis are permitted, is this correct? What size tire are you limited to? What min. weight? All these must be taken into consideration when choosing engine size, cam, etc. And what length track will it run on, high banks,flat, or semi banked, red clay base or other racing surface. These all must be factored into the engine setup to be competetive with it. You cannot just put the biggest everything into it & expect the chassis & track to hold it.
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 26811
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 02-08-2004 10:58 PM
You don't bring a knife to a gun fight. In a class where displacement of up to 406 cubic inches is allowed with no weight break advantage given for less, you'd be crazy to try and be competitive with less. ------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 9476
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 02-09-2004 12:00 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
You don't bring a knife to a gun fight. In a class where displacement of up to 406 cubic inches is allowed with no weight break advantage given for less, you'd be crazy to try and be competitive with less.
Yep, It's easy to back down on the power, but hard to crank it up if it wasn't built into the engine to begin with. SteveW
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Rustang
Gearhead Posts: 805
From: Clarion PA
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 02-09-2004 07:11 AM
Chassis most common are the Chevelle or early 80's GM mid-size. The car we're running is a mid 80's t-bird body on a '72 Torino chassis.Tires are pretty big for a "stock" chassis class.
Here's the tire rule:
16. Reinforced steel wheels with oversized lug nuts on all four wheels. If wheel beads are reinforced, you must use re-rod. No mags or bead-locks. No wheels wider than ten inches permitted.
17. Any type of tire, no larger than 1100 series, will be permitted.
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'68 mustang 351 clevor- 10.92@124
'67 Stang, 351W -11.18@118
'69 351C Torino-14.90@100
'78 Pickup 351W-15.56@88
'79 Pickup 460 ET=??
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rustang@home
Gearhead Posts: 134
From: Clarion, PA
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted 02-12-2004 10:23 PM
Well,
I think my buddy from work's ordering a 392 kit and some Roush 200 heads from Speedway Motors. Looks like that's the route we're taking. I'da shopped around a little bit but he's getting kinda edgy because he wants to be ready for test and tune in April. Hope he got forged pistons! ------------------
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