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Author
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Topic: Crank and rods
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Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 20708
From: Reno Nv USA M&M#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 01-13-2004 03:37 PM
   
Cast or forged crank, and rods. If I do or don't do a stroker which way should I go. I need to save money,but get my moneys worth at the same time. 
This is on my 1969 351w.I'm going with forged pistons looking for around 10-1 to 10.5-1 compression,
RPM heads,
not sure on cam yet. But I'm hoping for 350-450hp and I'm not looking to spin it above 6000rpm. Thanks Ron ------------------
SCOOP "It is the fight itself that keeps you young" 2.26 60'S
14.9 @ 90.86MPH 65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics [This message has been edited by Fastymz (edited 01-13-2004).]
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Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 20708
From: Reno Nv USA M&M#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 01-13-2004 05:48 PM
I have had more opinions on this. I want a real strong short block. But I need to keep th cost down too.I've been told the stock cast ot after market cast crank would be more then strong enough. Same with the stock rods. But others tell me not to go forged pistons unless you do the rods and crank too.------------------
SCOOP "It is the fight itself that keeps you young" 2.26 60'S
14.9 @ 90.86MPH 65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 44935
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99
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posted 01-13-2004 05:52 PM
The rods and crank are fine unless you plan on really revving it. Use good quality rod bolts, get the rods resized, use forged pistons, and get the whole recipricating assembly balanced and you'll be a happy man.------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 Open
'70 Mustang Convertible 250 I6/3 speed/2.79 Open
'72 Mustang Sprint Hardtop 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Loc
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 9489
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 01-13-2004 05:53 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Fastymz:
But others tell me not to go forged pistons unless you do the rods and crank too.
That's some bs advice there.  Depends on whether you're gonna stroke it Ron. Stock crank, rods, and good (forged)pistons will work good for a 400 hp 351w.  SteveW
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Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 20708
From: Reno Nv USA M&M#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 01-13-2004 05:54 PM
Steve if I can do the storker, or need new crank and rods should I then go cast or forged ?------------------
SCOOP "It is the fight itself that keeps you young" 2.26 60'S
14.9 @ 90.86MPH 65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics
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Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 20708
From: Reno Nv USA M&M#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 01-13-2004 05:56 PM
quote:
Originally posted by steve'66:
That's some bs advice there. Depends on whether you're gonna stroke it Ron. Stock crank, rods, and good (forged)pistons will work good for a 400 hp 351w. SteveW
SteveW one person that really drove the point home of not using forged pistons, and not use forged crank and rods too. Was a builder you know, I have got some good email advcie from. ------------------
SCOOP "It is the fight itself that keeps you young" 2.26 60'S
14.9 @ 90.86MPH 65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 44935
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99
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posted 01-13-2004 05:56 PM
You don't want cast or hypereutectic pistons in a performance engine. JMHO------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 Open
'70 Mustang Convertible 250 I6/3 speed/2.79 Open
'72 Mustang Sprint Hardtop 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Loc
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
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Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 20708
From: Reno Nv USA M&M#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 01-13-2004 06:02 PM
quote:
Originally posted by SteveLaRiviere:
You don't want cast or hypereutectic pistons in a performance engine. JMHO
Steve, Thats one thing I've leanred for sure. I'm going with Forged pistons flat tops. ------------------
SCOOP "It is the fight itself that keeps you young" 2.26 60'S
14.9 @ 90.86MPH 65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 44935
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99
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posted 01-13-2004 06:02 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Fastymz:
Was a builder you know, I have got some good email advcie from.
Not that time. Many people, including the factories themselves, {and even some Pro Stockers...  } have been building performance engines with forged pistons, forged rods, and cast cranks for the last 40-50 years or so. I suspect he wants to sell you some parts. ------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 Open
'70 Mustang Convertible 250 I6/3 speed/2.79 Open
'72 Mustang Sprint Hardtop 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Loc
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 9489
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 01-13-2004 06:06 PM
Ron,The second kit on the list would be a good street/strip stroker.
http://www.flatlanderracing.com/stroker351w396.html Scat 9000 cast crank
Scat 4340 I beam rods
SRP pistons
all for only $1,199 SteveW
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Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 20708
From: Reno Nv USA M&M#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 01-13-2004 06:12 PM
quote:
Originally posted by SteveLaRiviere:
I suspect he wants to sell you some parts.
Well of course he does, but he was just giving me his opinion too. He said not to build a motor with cheap parts where better parts are NEEDED. Like the site SteveW posted I see so many cast cranks for sale. So they must hold up? It got me thinking that my stoke crank might be just fine. I will not now or ever use n2o on the motor. But may upgrade the heads and cam and gears some day. And rev it alittle higher.
------------------
SCOOP
"It is the fight itself that keeps you young" 2.26 60'S
14.9 @ 90.86MPH 65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics [This message has been edited by Fastymz (edited 01-13-2004).]
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V8 Thumper
Gearhead Posts: 4652
From: Phoenix, Arizona
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 01-13-2004 07:12 PM
Just FYI, I run a cast crank in my little buzz-bomb  My scattershield showed up today. 8k rpm here I come ------------------
1965 GT coupe, 333ci aluminum headed/solid cammed stroker, four speed, 3.70:1 9" All Blue Oval, no blue bottle
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/V8Thumper.html
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Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 20708
From: Reno Nv USA M&M#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 01-13-2004 07:18 PM
quote:
Originally posted by V8 Thumper:
Just FYI, I run a cast crank in my little buzz-bomb My scattershield showed up today. 8k rpm here I come
Thanks buddy that does help to know. Did you get my email from the other day? Does that mean you might get that show queen dirty soon. ------------------
SCOOP "It is the fight itself that keeps you young" 2.26 60'S
14.9 @ 90.86MPH 65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics
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V8 Thumper
Gearhead Posts: 4652
From: Phoenix, Arizona
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 01-13-2004 09:01 PM
Show queen my a** ------------------
1965 GT coupe, 333ci aluminum headed/solid cammed stroker, four speed, 3.70:1 9" All Blue Oval, no blue bottle
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/V8Thumper.html
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clevelandstyle
Gearhead Posts: 1189
From: Connersville, IN
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 01-13-2004 11:38 PM
Ron, I really don't know how far you intend to go with this motor. If you are looking for a hot street/strip motor like I think you are, the cast crank will do fine for you. Sure you could build it stronger. We could say "over build it" if it makes you feel better. I just think you won't need it. You will probably stay under 500HP. Just go cast on the crank and forged on the pistons and you'll be fine. ------------------
Ben
Grabber Green '70 Mach I 351C 4V
Robbin Egg Blue '79 Fairmont 351C 4V
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 26813
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 01-13-2004 11:45 PM
FYI
All of my race engines in both stockers and MM have cast cranks.
Never spun a bearing yet.
Only problem we ever had was with improper heat treating last year. Too hard and cracked the crank.------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 9489
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 01-14-2004 12:25 AM
Ron,If you do decide on the stroker kit get the combo pack for $309 (good deal) and have the reciprocating assly balanced before delivery. You'll be money ahead. Then all you need is someone to prep your block machine it and clearance it to fit the longer stroke, and some decent heads to flow the extra cubes. You'll be looking at 11's on street tires at 5,000 ft elevation. Very  SteveW
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Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 20708
From: Reno Nv USA M&M#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 01-14-2004 01:15 AM
quote:
Originally posted by steve'66:
Ron,If you do decide on the stroker kit get the combo pack for $309 (good deal) and have the reciprocating assly balanced before delivery. You'll be money ahead. Then all you need is someone to prep your block machine it and clearance it to fit the longer stroke, and some decent heads to flow the extra cubes. You'll be looking at 11's on street tires at 5,000 ft elevation. Very SteveW
Steve if I have enough money for the stroker, I'll do it for sure.
What combo kit for $309 ??
I'm getting the RPM heads for sure!!! Alex just asking for my info. If the cast cranks hold up so well, then why do you hear so many people say forged is the only way to go and why do they sell the forged ones ?
------------------
SCOOP "It is the fight itself that keeps you young" 2.26 60'S
14.9 @ 90.86MPH 65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics
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Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 20708
From: Reno Nv USA M&M#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 01-14-2004 01:21 AM
quote:
Originally posted by clevelandstyle:
Ron, I really don't know how far you intend to go with this motor. If you are looking for a hot street/strip motor like I think you are, the cast crank will do fine for you. Sure you could build it stronger. We could say "over build it" if it makes you feel better.
As far as my money will take me.
I'd like a mostly hot street/strip motor.Just something badd enough to make the scoop and kill switch look like they belong. ------------------
SCOOP "It is the fight itself that keeps you young" 2.26 60'S
14.9 @ 90.86MPH 65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics
IP: Logged |
steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 9489
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 01-14-2004 10:27 AM
The mini combo kit is the rings, bearings, damper, and flex plate. It's on the website I posted.SteveW
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 44935
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99
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posted 01-14-2004 02:55 PM
If you build an engine with the intention of running it hard, you want hardware that can take some abuse. Who want to worry about a bad batch of gas pinging your ring lands off, or your pistons breaking like glass if you lose a retainer?I've bounced valves off the tops of forged pistons twice and both times they took it with only a little scarring. That sold me 100% on forged pistons. There are many places to save money on a performance engine, I feel pistons aren't one of them. ------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 Open
'70 Mustang Convertible 250 I6/3 speed/2.79 Open
'72 Mustang Sprint Hardtop 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Loc
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
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Daniel Jones
Gearhead Posts: 873
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: Aug 99
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posted 01-14-2004 08:38 PM
Some forged alloys have high silicon content to reduce the expansion, allowing tighter piston-to-wall clearances. A friend broke up a bunch of used pistons to melt down and use for casting. He said the race forged pistons were difficult to smash but the high silicon content forged alloys would shatter just like the standard cast aluminum pistons. Regardless, you want to stay out of detonation as aluminum, cast or forged, melts at the same temperature.Dan Jones
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clevelandstyle
Gearhead Posts: 1189
From: Connersville, IN
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 01-14-2004 09:28 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Fastymz:
If the cast cranks hold up so well, then why do you hear so many people say forged is the only way to go and why do they sell the forged ones ?
I think it's an old chebby thing. Chebby put forged cranks in there "high performance" engines. There castings may not have been so good in the old days. Ford wasn't afraid to use castings in most of there high performance engines. I really believe the Ford castings were better.Yeah, sure. Forgings are stronger. No doubt about it. I'm even putting a forged crank in my stroker motor, but only because I had to buy a crank anyway. If I were using a stock stroke, I gaurantee it would have the old cast crank in it. As Alex pointed out, a well preped cast crank can handle a lot of HP. ------------------
Ben
Grabber Green '70 Mach I 351C 4V
Robbin Egg Blue '79 Fairmont 351C 4V
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