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Author
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Topic: Need more speed...
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Scott (69Mach)
Gearhead Posts: 538
From: Walnut Creek, CA USA
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 12-01-2003 07:43 PM
   
and I'm turning to my pals here for some help. The car did a best of 13.3 at 103 in 75 degree air in Sacramento this summer. I��m looking at knocking a second off this et without resorting to the blue bottle (I��ll save that for later). The car runs very consistently, but I��d like to take it to the next level. I��ve sent Steve PDFs of a couple of chassis dyno runs from last month. Hopefully he can include them in this thread. The car is as follows: ��69 Mach 1 with all the interior
Subframe connectors with cross-braces
351C 4V quench
Stock crank and rods (prepped)
Forged pistons yielding 9.3:1
Mildly worked heads with single groove valves
Cam Research 226/230 cam (0.54/0.56 lift I think)
BT dual plane
BG 650 DP Mighty Demon
Timing is 14* initial, 34* total in by 3,000
1 ��Dynomax ceramic coated headers
3�� exhaust with X and Dynomax Race mufflers
Built C6 with lower than stock first gear running reverse pattern and manual shift only
Continental converter with ~3000 stall
Aluminum drive shaft
3.73 rear with Detroit locker
Moser axles
Running on borrowed MT ET Streets
Shifting at 6,300 in first and 6,500 in second
Starting on the third light from idle resulting in 0.520 to 0.580 lights The dyno sheet shows pretty good torque down low, but torque drops off pretty steadily. I think this is killing my top end. Any thoughts???
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 906
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 12-01-2003 08:00 PM
how tall are the M/Ts?
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capri man
Gearhead Posts: 4147
From: doerun, ga.
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 12-01-2003 08:12 PM
slicks and 4.10 gears!!------------------
mike r
racing is real
everything else is just a game.
81 capri-7.51 @89mph 1/8
1.54 60 ft. http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/billswebsite/pg06.html
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bluestreek
Gearhead Posts: 1460
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 12-01-2003 08:38 PM
You'll need to find about 80 more rwhp to knock off a whole second. 103 mph is enough for high 12s if you can figure where your loosing some HP.. that cam looks awful small for a 351C 4V.------------------
1966 Mustang Coupe: Custom glass hood and BIG scoop sits atop a 289 stroked to 331 c.i., Steel crank, rods and girdle, TFS alum. heads, Stealth 8020 intake, Xtreme 268 Solid Roller, Holley 750 HP, long tubes, 4speed, 9" 3.50 posi.
11.86 @ 116 mph (7.62 @ 93 mph)daily driver!
DanH
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Scott (69Mach)
Gearhead Posts: 538
From: Walnut Creek, CA USA
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 12-01-2003 08:55 PM
I'm running 26 inch MT ET Streets right now (borrowed from a friend). I agree that the cam likely has to go. I originally was just building a street machine. After hitting the track, I'm addicted and need to tune/swap parts to get to my new goal.
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 5105
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 12-01-2003 09:20 PM
A switch to a C4 trans should be worth around 2-3 tenths alone. Camshaft is too small (plus I'm not a fan at all of Cam Research), and the carb is also too small.
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N266fords
Gearhead Posts: 946
From: Spokane ,WA USA
Registered: Apr 2003
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posted 12-01-2003 09:58 PM
roller cam and 750 dp or vac sec. also what are your wires and dizzy like stock points or after market electronic dizzy how about the coil. Bruce
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clevelandstyle
Gearhead Posts: 780
From: Connersville, IN
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 12-01-2003 10:08 PM
A cam about 15-20* bigger. A 750 holley. A GOOD converter at least 4000rpm(more is better). Gears no less than 4.11(4.56 is better)
C4 is better.
I've never used a blue thunder intake, but I would thing a Torker is better also.
I ran 12.32 in a '70 Mach I with a similar setup. ------------------
Ben
Grabber Green '70 Mach I 351C 4V
Robbin Egg Blue '79 Fairmont 351C 4V
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bluestreek
Gearhead Posts: 1460
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 12-01-2003 11:31 PM
Can you post the numbers from your fastest timeslip? That will tell us a lot about how your setup is working.------------------
1966 Mustang Coupe: Custom glass hood and BIG scoop sits atop a 289 stroked to 331 c.i., Steel crank, rods and girdle, TFS alum. heads, Stealth 8020 intake, Xtreme 268 Solid Roller, Holley 750 HP, long tubes, 4speed, 9" 3.50 posi.
11.86 @ 116 mph (7.62 @ 93 mph)daily driver!
DanH
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Scott (69Mach)
Gearhead Posts: 538
From: Walnut Creek, CA USA
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 12-02-2003 11:24 AM
Best slip to date is:60 ft 1.955
330 ft 5.560
1/8 time 8.555
1/8 mph 82.839
1000 ft 11.138
1/4 time 13.353
1/4 mph 102.525 That was with no tire spin on warmed up MT ET Streets. The ignition consists of MSD dist., MSD 6 Digital and MSD 8mm wires.
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Mpcoluv
Gearhead Posts: 1090
From: Charlotte NC usa
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 12-02-2003 11:50 AM
Your compression ratio looks like it is about a point too low. You could pick up quite a bit of hp with a little more compression.
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Hans olsson
Gearhead Posts: 359
From: Sweden
Registered: Apr 2000
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posted 12-02-2003 01:02 PM
The total timing seems a little low to me,try adding a couple of degrees.
Hans ------------------
- 71 Mach 1 Ram-Air
- 351C 4V 285 HP
- F-G/Stock Aut
- Stockers are way cool!
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bluestreek
Gearhead Posts: 1460
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 12-02-2003 02:21 PM
The power looks pretty even all the way through the pull. It's actually doing pretty good considering how small the cam is. More compression will definately help.
You need a more agressive solid cam to get the most torque out of your heads and a .875 lifter. CompCams grinds an FL series lobe (Ford Lifter??) that works good with the Cleveland. It gives really fast valve action and .600 lift that the big ports really need.
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V-8
Gearhead Posts: 198
From: Turkey/Istanbul
Registered: Dec 2003
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posted 12-02-2003 03:10 PM
hi;Scott (69Mach)
what is the car weight???
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Scott (69Mach)
Gearhead Posts: 538
From: Walnut Creek, CA USA
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 12-02-2003 06:00 PM
The car is all stock so it probably weighs 3,500 or so with my fat ass in it. 
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 36138
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99
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posted 12-02-2003 07:12 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Scott (69Mach):
I��ve sent Steve PDFs of a couple of chassis dyno runs from last month. Hopefully he can include them in this thread.
Here they are:  
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ZEATER
Gearhead Posts: 117
From: Mount Pleasant,IA,USA
Registered: Aug 2001
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posted 12-02-2003 07:53 PM
Remember horsepower reads low and torque high on chassis dynos when running automatic.
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MattN
Journeyman Posts: 53
From: Mattoon, IL.
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 12-02-2003 08:31 PM
I want to first say that I am by no means an expert. It looks to me that your cam is peaking out awfully high for no bigger than it is. I know that Clevelands like to rev and all, I have one, but I have ran smaller engines with bigger cams that ran better shifted a lot sooner than you are shifting at. My advice before you get into the engine is to short shift it. Try diffent rpms to see if it helps. My brothers 302 with windsor heads and a 238* @ .050 cam ran 2 tenths better shifting about 5-600 rpm sooner. He was shifting at about 6000-6200. Something to think about.
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V-8
Gearhead Posts: 198
From: Turkey/Istanbul
Registered: Dec 2003
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posted 12-03-2003 04:46 PM
if you want to go 13s put 4.11 or more ratios.it is cheaper and simple than to change cam,comp ratio,ignition etc...
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capri man
Gearhead Posts: 4147
From: doerun, ga.
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 12-03-2003 05:08 PM
remember that losing weight is the cheapest way to go faster. in fact it is virtualy free!!! 10 parts that weigh 10 lbs = 100lbs. 100lbs = aproxamatly 1/10th sec------------------
mike r
racing is real
everything else is just a game.
81 capri-7.51 @89mph 1/8
1.54 60 ft. http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/billswebsite/pg06.html
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V-8
Gearhead Posts: 198
From: Turkey/Istanbul
Registered: Dec 2003
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posted 12-03-2003 05:45 PM
or reduce weight.you are true capri man.but may be he wants his car seems stock!?
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 36138
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99
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posted 12-03-2003 06:02 PM
Then cut out the potato chips.------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 Open
'70 Mustang Convertible 250 I6/3 speed/2.79 Open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Loc
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 906
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 12-03-2003 06:04 PM
try rigging up a carbon dioxide fire extinguisher to cool down the intake before and during a runor get some dry ice to ice down the intake before each run
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Scott (69Mach)
Gearhead Posts: 538
From: Walnut Creek, CA USA
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 12-04-2003 10:15 AM
But Steve, I live for chips. Without those, I'd be only half the man I am today. Based on the feedback so far, I see three common threads: Cam, Carb and Weight. Weight is difficult to address since I want to keep it relatively stock and I'm not that overweight (only 210 on a 6'1" frame). Cam and carb I can do. Based on the torque curves and times I'm running, does anyone have a recommendation on the cam? Make, specs, etc. I don't care too much about idle quality, I'm more interested in getting the most from this motor. I'll be borrowing a friends 750 dp to dyno in a week or two to see what that does for me. I'll also try shifting a little sooner to see what that nets on the ETs. Thanks for the help.
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clevelandstyle
Gearhead Posts: 780
From: Connersville, IN
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 12-04-2003 12:54 PM
I don't want to recommend a cam, because it always starts arguments, but it is a good place to start. As I said earlier, about 10-15* bigger. Just remember that the gearing and converter will have to be adjusted to make this combo come together.  ------------------
Ben
Grabber Green '70 Mach I 351C 4V
Robbin Egg Blue '79 Fairmont 351C 4V
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Scott (69Mach)
Gearhead Posts: 538
From: Walnut Creek, CA USA
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 12-04-2003 12:58 PM
I was thinking the same thing. Something on the order of 240i/250e or so. Probably a tighter LSA than the 111 of the current cam. I thought I'd drop the cam in and see what it runs with the current converter. However, I'm guessing the converter will need to be replaced as well.Thanks for the help.
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Hans olsson
Gearhead Posts: 359
From: Sweden
Registered: Apr 2000
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posted 12-04-2003 02:02 PM
For a good lobe separation angle, try 106.------------------
- 71 Mach 1 Ram-Air
- 351C 4V 285 HP
- F-G/Stock Aut
- Stockers are way cool!
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V-8
Gearhead Posts: 198
From: Turkey/Istanbul
Registered: Dec 2003
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posted 12-04-2003 03:02 PM
changing the cam=changing the converter too.
try 4.11 or 4.33 ratios!
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