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Author
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Topic: Help with timing
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Jerry Piner
Gearhead Posts: 177
From: staunton, va
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 09-15-2003 11:54 AM
  
We checked the timing on my car & it is like 64 degrees at 3000 RPM thought the light was broke put it on my friends car and it is 35 at 3000. Called his father in law he said the advance was messed up to lock it out and then set the timing.
First of all does this sound right?
Second he said that the car would slow down when we fixed it. This does not sound right to me I always thought if the timing was to low or to high the car wouldn't run as good seems like to me if we get it fixed and the timing it the mid 30's where it should be seems like the car should pick up quite a bit what do you think.
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65_302
Gearhead Posts: 261
From: Bixby, OK
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 09-15-2003 01:06 PM
Is it an old harmonic balancer? If it is and the rubber is old the outside ring where the timing marks are can slip. It happened to me just before the balancer broke into 5 peices. What does it read at idle?
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 8826
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 09-15-2003 08:17 PM
If it runs good at 64* btdc, the balancer's marks are off.  SteveW
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Jerry Piner
Gearhead Posts: 177
From: staunton, va
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 09-16-2003 10:46 AM
Hey Steve at TDC the pointer is at 0 on the balancer.
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Tbird
Gearhead Posts: 298
From: USA
Registered: May 2003
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posted 09-16-2003 11:47 AM
This ounds like the old Ford 292-312 engines. They would never run worth a darn when set with a timing light but would haul butt if you set the timing by ear.
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bluestreek
Gearhead Posts: 1724
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 09-16-2003 12:21 PM
It's not unusual to have 50-60 degrees total with a vacuum advance unit hooked up. The vacuum advance falls off under a heavy pull at WOT. What's important is the total mechanical advance with the vacuum hose disconnected. 36-42 degrees mechanical advance on a average street motor is common. If it likes much more than that, the compression is very low for the cam or the cam could be off a few degrees.------------------
1966 Mustang Coupe: Custom glass hood and BIG scoop sits atop a 289 stroked to 331 c.i., Steel crank and girdle, 5.4 H-beams, Forged slugs, TFS alum. heads, ported Stealth 8020 intake, Xtreme 274 Solid Roller, Holley 750 HP, long tubes, 4speed, 9" 3.50 posi.
11.86 @ 116 mph (7.62 @ 93 mph)full street trim!
DanH
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Jerry Piner
Gearhead Posts: 177
From: staunton, va
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 09-16-2003 12:31 PM
The vacuum advance is not hooked up and this is not a street car it is an 1/8th mile bracket car only.
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N266fords
Gearhead Posts: 1404
From: Spokane ,WA USA
Registered: Apr 2003
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posted 09-16-2003 03:05 PM
put a lock out on your advance and get sfi balancer end of story..bruce
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Rustang
Gearhead Posts: 733
From: Clarion PA
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 09-16-2003 04:48 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Piner:
Hey Steve at TDC the pointer is at 0 on the balancer.
Jerry
How did you verify TDC when you were at 0 on the pointer?
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bluestreek
Gearhead Posts: 1724
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 09-16-2003 07:08 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Piner:
The vacuum advance is not hooked up and this is not a street car it is an 1/8th mile bracket car only.
Are you sure your reading off #1 cylinder in the firing order? Seems to me if you're able to run WOT at 64 degrees advance, you must have a lot of compression bleeding off or the distributor or timing gear has a lot of slack.
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Jerry Piner
Gearhead Posts: 177
From: staunton, va
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 09-16-2003 08:25 PM
Rustang-we took the spark plug out and bumped it over with a screw driver in the hole till it was at the top.Bluestreek-Yes we are reading #1, also the timing chain is brand new it only has about 10 races on it. [This message has been edited by Jerry Piner (edited 09-16-2003).]
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capri man
Gearhead Posts: 6417
From: doerun, ga.
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 09-16-2003 09:37 PM
jerry, i hope you can find out what is wrong with yours because i have a very similar problem. i recently put a complete motor in my car out of another car. i used my old ignition system. i always install my dist in the same position and i know exactly where it sould be turned to get my timing within a very few degrees. the balancer has not slipped and is marked in the correct place. at tdc the mark is perfectly on 0 and the rotor is pointing at the #1 plug wire on the cap. i have checked all this several times. i even took the timing cover off to be sure that the chain was on right. when i started the motor, i seemed to run great. then i put the light on it and it was at 38 initial and 58 advanced (no vacuum advance) when i set it where it should be 14/24 it wont hardly idle and generally runs like shyt. i have the cam in straight up. here is my cam specs.
GROSS DURATION = 286/296
DURATION @ .050 = 230/234
VALVE LIFT = .536/.544
LOBE SEP = 110
ADVANCE = 2
HYRAULIC CAM
am i missing something here. HELP US!!------------------
mike r
racing is real
everything else is just a game.
81 capri-7.51 @89mph 1/8
1.54 60 ft. http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/billswebsite/pg06.html
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Rustang
Gearhead Posts: 733
From: Clarion PA
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 09-17-2003 07:18 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Piner:
Rustang-we took the spark plug out and bumped it over with a screw driver in the hole till it was at the top.
Jerry, That's not a very accurate way of measuring TDC. On a stock stroke 351 with stock length rod, 5 degrees either way from TDC the piston's only down the hole .008". Then at TDC the piston can rock about .005" in the bore. That means you could rotate the crank 5 degrees either way from TDC and not measure any piston movement! And that would be measuring with a dial indicator. Bottom line you could easily be off 5-10 degrees on your marks and you'd never be able to measure it with a screwdriver. Assuming your engine is in fact at 60BTDC, I guess it would run but it would almost have to be detonating. I've never heard of anyone running that much lead and making better power than say 30-40BTDC. (However a couple years ago I accidentally bumped up the timing on my Clevor motor to around 48-50 from 40 and it picked up ET. This may be peculiar to the Cleveland combustion chamber since I've heard of guys running better on hot muggy days with the timing jacked way up with these motors.) So assuming you don't have accurate means to measure TDC, I'd set the timing to 35BTDC and take it to test and tune night. Keep bumping up the timing until your ET's drop. Bump it back to where it ran best and that's where I'd keep it 
------------------
'68 mustang 351 clevor- 10.92@124
'67 Stang, 351W -11.18@118
'69 351C Torino-14.90@100
'78 Pickup 351W-15.56@88
'79 Pickup 460 ET=??
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 6098
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 09-17-2003 08:01 AM
Something ahs to be out of whack. Whether it is the dampner, or how you found TDC. But, if everything is "right", and you really are around 60*, it will run better once the timing is set back.My cleveland likes a lot of timing, but not that much. I have been up to 45*, and it kept going faster the more I put in it. And I had a buddy tell me they used to run 55* in thier old cleveland. I also have a buddy with a 360 stock class motor that runs 50* of total timing, and it works well (it was a former national record holder.) But, I have never heard of anyone running over 60*, especially with a motor that has a decent combustion chamber and flat tops. I agree with the above post, set the timing back to 35* total locked out, then start bumping it up till the car slows down, then set it back to the previous setting.
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mvierow
Gearhead Posts: 209
From: Bay Area, Ca
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 09-17-2003 09:33 PM
Man, seems like I'm part of this group too. I just got done building a motor using a Fluidampr balancer. The balancer has timing marks for two different TDC's for some reason. When stabbing the distributor I set the initial timing on the wrong set of marks, what I thought was 10*BTDC was actually something like 70*BTDC. I tried starting the motor this way, and amazingly it started but was detonating very badly. I pulled the #1 plug again and checked my timing and that was when I realized my mistake. I've since then restabed the distributor on the correct marks, but now the car only spudders while cranking it over. I've tried everything from 8* to 24* initial without any change. Could this somehow be attributed to value lash?
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cracing
Gearhead Posts: 340
From: Saltillo Miss. USA
Registered: Jan 2002
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posted 09-17-2003 11:04 PM
A friend with a round track sbc had similar prob,it would only have throttle response & run decent when set at 56-58 total,no advance, locked out. He set it by ear & ran it one race & ran good,checked it with light & it was on 58. We changed complete ign sys,damper,rechecked cam installation,finally ordered an identical cam & it cured the problem. Turned out they had ground cam wrong. Now runs 34-38 total.Might or might not be your problem.I did find it easier & less painful to use my hands instead of my ear to set timing tho. BWAAAHAHA, LOL, couldnt resist that!------------------
BAD COMPANY TILL THE DAY I DIE!!!!!
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cracing
Gearhead Posts: 340
From: Saltillo Miss. USA
Registered: Jan 2002
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posted 09-17-2003 11:10 PM
Yeah, yeah, I know everybody likes a little azz, but nobody likes a smartazz.------------------
BAD COMPANY TILL THE DAY I DIE!!!!!
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