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Author Topic:   Calling all Cleveland help....
orangemach1
Journeyman

Posts: 46
From: Southgate, MI
Registered: May 2003

posted 07-14-2003 09:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for orangemach1   Click Here to Email orangemach1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Guys,

Have a 377C with a BIGS 950 Carb, Wiand X-Cellerator, quench heads. I am having some issues with the power band once I bolted up the new carb and intake. I know my cam is a little on the small side, 536/545 lift, but I know there is more power to be had with this combo until I bump the cam.

It seems to run good up and through 4000-4500, flattens out pretty bad, then has a short surge of power again before 5000, again flattens out up to 6000?!? What's the additional short power surge about??

Let me know what you "C" guys think.

Thanks,

------------------
Brian, 1970 Mach 1, 377C, Shaker, 4-Speed

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70coupe
Gearhead

Posts: 483
From: Toronto,Ontario,Canada
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 07-14-2003 09:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 70coupe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I personally have run many different intakes and the Weiand x-cellerator is one of the worst. I hate to tell someone that but I've proven it to myself over and over. The intake is not the culprit for your problem but it might be the carb? What are you jetted at? How fresh is the carb? Also what is your initial and total timing?

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orangemach1
Journeyman

Posts: 46
From: Southgate, MI
Registered: May 2003

posted 07-14-2003 09:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for orangemach1   Click Here to Email orangemach1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Got the intake used (good price), trying it out until I can get my hands on a reasonably priced Strip Dominator.

Carb is a BIGS 950 HP Stage 5 brand new, jetted at 81-88. Timing is set at 10deg with 38deg total in about 3000.

------------------
Brian, 1970 Mach 1, 377C, Shaker, 4-Speed

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70coupe
Gearhead

Posts: 483
From: Toronto,Ontario,Canada
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 07-14-2003 09:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 70coupe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The 88 seems quite a bit high to me in the rear. Just my opinion, you will get many,I would square it at 81 and try it out. You might be getting too much fuel and bogging the motor. Just a guess! Your timing is bang on!

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orangemach1
Journeyman

Posts: 46
From: Southgate, MI
Registered: May 2003

posted 07-14-2003 10:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for orangemach1   Click Here to Email orangemach1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Will try tomorrow maybe, I knew buying the jet box was the thing to do , The timing is using the 28deg stop in the MSD, with 10deg initial. Witht the lightest springs it is supposed to get me 38 by 3000, although I haven't had the chance to have someone rev it up for me so I could check it to the chart.

Funny though, the plugs don't seem look that rich to be overjetting that much, believe me I am no expert on carbs. They are a little rich though...I wanted to put a fresh set of ASF-32's in too.

70coupe, What's your poison when it comes to intakes? others have shown me the light with the strip dom, there are a couple that have had reasonably good luck with the torker.

------------------
Brian, 1970 Mach 1, 377C, Shaker, 4-Speed

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 6405
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 07-14-2003 10:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree the intake is poor for your motor. Also, it sounds too rich to me also. I just looked in my old log book back from when I ran a 950HP on my motor. The biggest jets I ever ran in the back were 84's. And that was on a strip dominator on a solid roller cammed motor. With a powervalve in the front it looks like 75/82 and 77/84 were very popular jet combos on my motor.

One thing to look out for with the light springs is if the cam wants to idle over 900 rpm the distributor will try and start the advance curve at that point. Since my motor idles around 1000-1100, I had to put one light spring and one spring that was a touch heavier to get it to stop doing that. It would start to advance the timing, then once the idle slowed down, it would try to die. Blip the throttle, the thing would idle too high, till it slowed down below the advance curve again and it would try to die, rinse and repeat as necassary. I could not figure out why it wouldn't idle. It was very frustrating till I figured out what it was doing.

Have you tried to add a one inch open spacer under the carb to try and increase the plenum volume? I also have had very good luck NGK plugs in my street motors, and even in my race motors. I would run a -6 plug in yours unless the compression is over 12-1, then a -7 would be in order. Or you could just break down and buy a set of Autolite AR-132's for it. I run the AR series of plugs now in my race cleveland, and they work great.

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70coupe
Gearhead

Posts: 483
From: Toronto,Ontario,Canada
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 07-15-2003 12:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 70coupe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm currently running a torker with reasonable success. I would love a strip dominator(proven winner). I will put one on at the end of the season. I know there are several Australian intakes floating around but I dont know enough about them to comment.
I also agree with the spacer, I currently run a 2" 4 hole spacer and it helped bottom end compared to no spacer. I would like to try a 1" open as well. Hey Kid, have you tried several different spacers? Did you find the 1" open the best?
Good luck!
Brian

[This message has been edited by 70coupe (edited 07-15-2003).]

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orangemach1
Journeyman

Posts: 46
From: Southgate, MI
Registered: May 2003

posted 07-15-2003 07:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for orangemach1   Click Here to Email orangemach1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Guys,

"With a powervalve in the front it looks like 75/82 and 77/84 were very popular jet combos on my motor".

Should I run the jet sizes square or keep them 7 sizes apart?? I have always read to always have them about 7 apart.

Kid,

I am not sure if you remember, but I am the guy that "must" run the shaker. With the weiand and the correct shaker base (which I now have on the car), I could fit a 1/2" easily, maybe a 3/4"-1". I was thinking about it over the weekend to try that. I remember you and Xerox saying that yours lit up some when you increased the spacer size. I am going to throw some washers in there tonight if I get a chance and see how high I can go before I buy one.

So you have an MSD dist in yours then? Which stop are you running then? the 25deg? If I go by the book the light blue and light silver with a 28deg stop will bring it all in over 3000 (thought we wnated it in by then). For right now I have been just looking at the chart in regards to the advance and rate of it. I haven't had someone help with the gas to actualy see if the charts are correct or not.


------------------
Brian, 1970 Mach 1, 377C, Shaker, 4-Speed

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 6405
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 07-15-2003 08:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes I am running an MSD distributor. I am currently running the 21* bushing in mine. I am running a light silver spring and a light blue spring. I have found with mine the chart is dead on.

I would think any amount of spacer you can get under it would be better, even if it is only 1/2".

When I ran a Torker I tried all sorts of combos of spacers. I even ran a 1" 4 hole stacked on top of a 1" open spacer. It just seemed to work best with a 1" open spacer. I did not have my 2" open spacer at that time so I don't know if that would have been better or not. I got it after I bought my strip dom intake, and it does work best with a 2" open spacer.

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64FalconF-16
Gearhead

Posts: 230
From: Republic Of Texas!! Temporarily living in KY
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 07-15-2003 09:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 64FalconF-16   Click Here to Email 64FalconF-16     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What about your fuel pump? What is it? Also what fuel line size?

It sounds to me like your fuel pump may be starving the carb or your floats are set too low in the carb.

------------------
Rick Austin

64 Pro-Street Falcon
351C 4V 8.1s in 1/8
79 Ford Bronco 4 X 4
400 9.9s in 1/8
2000 F-150 XLT 5.4L
1932 Ford 3 window Coupe
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/64FalconF-16.html

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orangemach1
Journeyman

Posts: 46
From: Southgate, MI
Registered: May 2003

posted 07-15-2003 10:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for orangemach1   Click Here to Email orangemach1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Fuel pump is a mechanical replacement, I think either an Edelbrock or Mr.Gasket, something along those lines. I bought it about 4years ago and can't remmeber what I picked up. What kind should I be running? What do you guys recommend?

Tank to fuel pump is stock line, fuel pump to carb is -8AN to dual feed Barry Grant line.

As a matter of fact, I also had another little problem that wasn't a big deal to me, but when I come up to a stop light the car seems like it wants to stumble a little. I can't remember if this happens after I mash the throttle every time or not. Will this be a float level problem???

Kid, So, 21* stop with 17 deg of initial timing?

------------------
Brian, 1970 Mach 1, 377C, Shaker, 4-Speed

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 6405
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 07-15-2003 10:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by orangemach1:
Kid, So, 21* stop with 17 deg of initial timing?


You will have to figure out what yours works best with. I currently have mine with the 21* bushing and 20* initial. But my motor likes a lot of timing.

IN yours, I would probably start off with the 25* bushing, 11-13* initial, one light silver spring and one blue spring to start with.

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70coupe
Gearhead

Posts: 483
From: Toronto,Ontario,Canada
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 07-15-2003 11:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 70coupe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just curious,if you have one of the newer HP carbs they have power valves front and rear thats why I thought to square it.
Brian

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 6405
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 07-15-2003 11:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mine came with a powervalve but I took it out and plugged it. I've always plugged the rear powervalve in any race/hi-performance application. If running a powervalve in the back, I would run it square also.

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70coupe
Gearhead

Posts: 483
From: Toronto,Ontario,Canada
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 07-15-2003 11:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 70coupe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I plugged both of mine in my 750HP.
Brian

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orangemach1
Journeyman

Posts: 46
From: Southgate, MI
Registered: May 2003

posted 07-15-2003 11:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for orangemach1   Click Here to Email orangemach1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Powervalve in front only....I'll try your numbers Kid.

70coupe, what numbers have you ran, jet size?

"As a matter of fact, I also had another little problem that wasn't a big deal to me, but when I come up to a stop light the car seems like it wants to stumble a little. I can't remember if this happens after I mash the throttle every time or not. Will this be a float level problem???"

guys, what about this question I had above??

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Dad Vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 920
From: Moscow, Iowa, USA
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 07-15-2003 12:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dad Vishus   Click Here to Email Dad Vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
With stock fuel line from the tank and a mechanical pump, I'd sure be suspicious of fuel starving.

With more performance upgrades planned for the future, I'd sure think about 1/2 inch line and a good electric pump. The Holley 350 has worked well for KV on alky, but that may be a bit much for a milder setup on gas. Even if fuel delivery isn't the problem now, more performance mods will make it one sometime in the future.

Just my $.02

------------------
63 Falcon 377 Cleveland stroker Flying Toilet alchohol injection. 6.19 @ 110 MPH 1/8 mile
2002 Ranger FX4 daily driver
2000 F350 PSD Crew cab dually - Like commuting in a B52!!
98 US Cargo Phantom II 28'

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70coupe
Gearhead

Posts: 483
From: Toronto,Ontario,Canada
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 07-15-2003 12:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 70coupe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I ran in the 81 to 83 square area depending on weather with the 950 but I'm currently running a 750HP with 85 square and no power valves.

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 6405
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 07-15-2003 12:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by orangemach1:
"As a matter of fact, I also had another little problem that wasn't a big deal to me, but when I come up to a stop light the car seems like it wants to stumble a little. I can't remember if this happens after I mash the throttle every time or not. Will this be a float level problem???"

Sounds like a low float level to me, but I could be wrong. The only way to know for sure is to check it while's running on flat ground.

That could also be why it has a "flat" spot in the middle of the powerband (like Rick said).

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 6405
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 07-15-2003 02:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dad Vishus:
With more performance upgrades planned for the future, I'd sure think about 1/2 inch line and a good electric pump.


The only downfall to all of the electric pumps I have ran is they are extremely noisey, especailly for a street car. I have not ran any of the Mallory pumps though, so that may be an option if you choose to go that route.

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 2694
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 07-15-2003 04:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Are the valve springs correct for the cam, and are they installed at the recommended height? Weak springs will make one nose over up top.

Does it have solid or hydraulic lifters? Hydraulic lifters with too much preload (tightened down too far) will cause problems at higher rpm.

If it's a vacuum secondary carb, verify that the secondaries are opening. Personally, I'd do this by installing a double pumper. It doesn't take much to render the vacuum secondaries on a Holley inoperative. The diaphragm can be ripped or leaking. The connection between the vacuum 'pod' and main body can be leaking. (there's a tiny donut gasket between the two) The port where the vacuum acts can be clogged. Etc... Plus, it seems they pretty much NEVER open up all the way. Needless to say, I don't really care for vacuum secondary Holleys.

Good Luck!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

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orangemach1
Journeyman

Posts: 46
From: Southgate, MI
Registered: May 2003

posted 07-15-2003 06:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for orangemach1   Click Here to Email orangemach1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Problem didn't start until new carb and intake was bolted on.

Carb is BIGS Holley 950HP and Weiand XCellerator.

valves seem a little loud, I have Hydraulic lifters. Might need a valve adjustment.

Heads were just rebuilt last year with new springs and cam setup.

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70coupe
Gearhead

Posts: 483
From: Toronto,Ontario,Canada
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 07-15-2003 07:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 70coupe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Have you checked the carb base gasket for leaks as well as any vacuum ports on the carb or intake manifold. These problems your talking about could be a vacuum leak somewhere.

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orangemach1
Journeyman

Posts: 46
From: Southgate, MI
Registered: May 2003

posted 07-16-2003 11:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for orangemach1   Click Here to Email orangemach1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jetted down the carb last night to 77-84's, took it for a spin tonight. Only jetted it down, nothing else was done except add a 1/2" spacer.

Runs extremely better up top. But, I still have that "pull, flatten, pull, flatten, pull" type fo power band up above 4500 to about 6000. What does this mean. It seems to stumble while going through this area of the power band. Down low is a little worse, not much.

What do you guys think? Do I have a fuel starvation problem? Float levels too low? Solutions?

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