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Author Topic:   Working towards 11sec car.
Kellxr7
Gearhead

Posts: 129
From: Medstead SK Canada
Registered: Mar 2003

posted 03-08-2003 12:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kellxr7   Click Here to Email Kellxr7     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am wondering if anyone could give me some ideas for combos that will put my 68 Cougar thru the 1/4 mile around 11 seconds, (Combos with a 302). Preferably N\A I am assuming I will want or need a 347 stroker, The tranny will be either a c4 or Aod, with 4.11s. I am thinking of scrapping my 351W idea.( My Cougar weighs around 3400lbs, it has full interior & plan to keep it that way. (Sorry, I had to edit this)

[This message has been edited by Kellxr7 (edited 03-08-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Kellxr7 (edited 03-08-2003).]

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65_289
Gearhead

Posts: 761
From:
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 03-08-2003 01:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 65_289   Click Here to Email 65_289     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
At that weight, with a 302, you'll have to turn some decent RPM, or put a turbo/super/nitrous on it. A mildly built 302 with an ATI or a 150 shot would be there.

A stroked 351 could do it all day with no sweat...

[This message has been edited by 65_289 (edited 03-08-2003).]

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steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 6522
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 03-08-2003 02:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Our BaddAss 408w would run low 11's in your Cougar at 10-1 compression you could run on pump gas N/A all day long. I don't see a 302 getting it done for you. My buddy put a healthy 351w with AFR heads 10-1 compression in a loaded '68 Cougar street car. It ran 13.90's.

SteveW

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Kellxr7
Gearhead

Posts: 129
From: Medstead SK Canada
Registered: Mar 2003

posted 03-08-2003 02:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kellxr7   Click Here to Email Kellxr7     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Arghh, ok, now I am thinking of going back to the 351 stroker idea, Desisions desisions.

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Mpcoluv
Gearhead

Posts: 945
From: Charlotte NC usa
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 03-08-2003 05:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mpcoluv   Click Here to Email Mpcoluv     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kellxr7:
Arghh, ok, now I am thinking of going back to the 351 stroker idea, Desisions desisions.

The 393 strokers can be built pretty cheaply.
IMHO a 393 should be cheaper to build than a 347....
Just make sure you have a decent cam and good aftermarket heads.

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19704
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 03-08-2003 05:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I build a 302 roller bracket motor for MM that ran 11.70's all day at about 3200 lbs.
I used to swap it out for the SS engine in between events. Some of you long time M&Mer's may remember that I traded it for MM's paint job.
High compression, big roller cam, decent set of 351W heads, Victor Jr. 830 DP carb with a spacer. Good balance job and .060 over TRW L-2249F's. Aftermarket heads would have made it quicker yet today.
7500 RPM, 8 inch 5k converter and 5.67 gears.
No trans brake.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
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The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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Kellxr7
Gearhead

Posts: 129
From: Medstead SK Canada
Registered: Mar 2003

posted 03-08-2003 05:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kellxr7   Click Here to Email Kellxr7     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Would the 393 be a little more durable/reliable than a 347 as well? Being it is a bigger stronger bock, with a less radical stroke given size of the block.

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 1547
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 03-08-2003 06:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ford stroked the small block the right way back in 1969 when they came up with the 351W. The 351W block is WAY stronger than it's 289-302 brother.

If you're looking for 11 second et's, it's a no-brainer. If there are no rules on displacement, you can't beat a stroked 351W. It's just too easy to swap into your car, and 393ci is only a relatively inexpensive crankshaft away. Top it with a good carb, intake, a good set of aftermarket heads (mandatory), and good headers/exhaust, and you're on your way to easy 11 second et's.

A 302 that would push your big cougar to 11 second et's would be pretty high strung... and high maintenance. It would also be more expensive to build than an 11 second 393. The 393 would also last longer and provide greater reliability, since it wouldn't have to be built quite as radical. It would require less gear, and wouldn't require an extra-loose 8" converter like a hot 302 based engine.

Good Luck!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

[This message has been edited by n2oMike (edited 03-08-2003).]

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Kellxr7
Gearhead

Posts: 129
From: Medstead SK Canada
Registered: Mar 2003

posted 03-08-2003 06:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kellxr7   Click Here to Email Kellxr7     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks, thats sort of what I wanted to hear. What I am wondering now is , should I get an older model block? I heard they have heavier castings. Also should I rollerize it?

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stinger
Gearhead

Posts: 168
From: mn
Registered: Feb 2003

posted 03-08-2003 06:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for stinger   Click Here to Email stinger     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
what do u need too make a stroker besides the crank? Can u just put a stroker crank in or do u have too change everything else as well.

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 1547
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 03-08-2003 07:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
69-74 blocks are supposed to be the strongest, but a buddy built one using a 77' block that eventually pushed his car WELL into the 9's (5.92 @ 121 in the 1/8) on two stages of nitrous.

The 69 model blocks have a slightly shorter deck height. They come in at 9.48", while the later blocks are around 0.020" taller. The block being used needs to be taken into account when the parts start getting ordered. You can add the crank throw (half the stroke) to the rod length, and the piston's compression height to see how close it comes to the 9.48" or 9.5" deck height.

393 cranks are designed to be used with stock length 351w rods and 302 pistons. One just has to be careful the pistons don't have long skirts that will interfere with the crank's counterweights at the bottom of the stroke... or there will be some grinding to be done. It's best to 'mock' everything up with a trial assembly before sending the parts to the machine shop for balancing. Some manufacturers will know if the pistons will clear in 393's.

Good Luck!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

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jkilroy
Gearhead

Posts: 1719
From: Vicksburg, MS
Registered: Dec 99

posted 03-08-2003 08:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jkilroy   Click Here to Email jkilroy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Personally, beging the Big Block guy that I am, I would go find a low mileage Lincoln or Mercury product with a 460, C6, 9 inch combo in it. They are out there all over the place, should not pay more than 1500 to 2000 for one in good driveable shape. Very, very little would have to be done to a 460 to put you in the 11's

------------------
Jay Kilroy
68' Fastback GT 390
"No such thing as a cam thats too big"

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Fstln69
Gearhead

Posts: 325
From: Westmont,il
Registered: Jan 2003

posted 03-08-2003 08:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fstln69   Click Here to Email Fstln69     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So the piston pin location is different in the 302 vs 351w piston?I was thinking of a stroker for our windsor but those lunati/taylor 351w pistons are to nice just to toss D'OH!

------------------
69 fairlane 351w [email protected] before M&M.. after??
always in search of more HP and faster ET'S

Fstln69 Pics Page

[This message has been edited by Fstln69 (edited 03-08-2003).]

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jsracingbbf
Gearhead

Posts: 1677
From: Batesville,MS. , U.S.A.
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 03-08-2003 09:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jsracingbbf   Click Here to Email jsracingbbf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jkilroy:
Personally, beging the Big Block guy that I am, I would go find a low mileage Lincoln or Mercury product with a 460, C6, 9 inch combo in it. They are out there all over the place, should not pay more than 1500 to 2000 for one in good driveable shape. Very, very little would have to be done to a 460 to put you in the 11's



SHHHHHHHHHHHHH JAY don't fan the flames! your gonna get the big block small block thing going again Im with you buddy!
JS

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 1547
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 03-08-2003 09:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm all for 460's where they fit. But, I've seen 67-68 mustangs with 460's installed, they those suckers are TIGHT!

Stroked 351W's have close to the same cubes, and actually fit with room to spare.

Maybe I shouldn't have made this post... but anyone contemplating installing the mighty 460 in a 67-68 mustang should go take a look at one that's had it done first! It's not a minor swap, and you couldn't pay me enough to work on it. FE's in those cars are bad enough.

Good Luck!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

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Kellxr7
Gearhead

Posts: 129
From: Medstead SK Canada
Registered: Mar 2003

posted 03-08-2003 10:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kellxr7   Click Here to Email Kellxr7     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yea, I did consider putting a bigblock in the Cougar but, But theyre heavier, I would have to upgrade to stronger suspension & change motormounts, plus I got alot of parts for Windsors so I am going to stay away from the bigblock idea. Gas milege is also a bit of an issue,not a big one but I do know a 185 or FE block would be harder on gas than a hopped up Windsor

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steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 6522
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 03-08-2003 10:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kellxr7:
Gas milege is also a bit of an issue,not a big one but I do know a 185 or FE block would be harder on gas than a hopped up Windsor

I don't know about that?!?

H.P. needs fuel, now you're asking which block can make h.p. more efficiently. Probably the near stock 460 that Jay sugessted would be more efficient on the fuel/h.p. curve, than a 7500 rpm 302.

SteveW

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Kellxr7
Gearhead

Posts: 129
From: Medstead SK Canada
Registered: Mar 2003

posted 03-08-2003 11:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kellxr7   Click Here to Email Kellxr7     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Probably the near stock 460 that Jay sugessted would be more efficient on the fuel/h.p. curve, than a 7500 rpm 302.

Oh yea, I know what youre saying but being the car would be 'street'/strip, with over drive, Im sure the Windsor (even though it would be a gas hog for a smallblock) would be a little more efficient than the heavy big block, thats not really the main point I was making, just that it would be alot easier to put a windsor in my cougar ,being it came with one ,like I said , suspension , C6 tranny ,mounts etc, Id be stupid to look for gas milage in a race car. Best Regards ,Kel

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bluestreek
Gearhead

Posts: 1289
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 03-09-2003 01:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for bluestreek   Click Here to Email bluestreek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I met a guy at the track today running a real mildly bult BOSS 351 in a '70 Cougar. He was having traction problems and only managed 12.80s @ 106 mph. I thought it would be faster but I guess it takes a lot of mojo to get one down the track.

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steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 6522
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 03-09-2003 01:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kellxr7:
Id be stupid to look for gas milage in a race car. Best Regards ,Kel


I agree, but why was that a consideration in your earlier post?

Personally if a street/strip car gets 6 mpg that's pretty good.

SteveW

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65racecoupe
Gearhead

Posts: 126
From: Layton UT,
Registered: May 2002

posted 03-09-2003 01:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 65racecoupe   Click Here to Email 65racecoupe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Go with a 393 or a 408 and put some nice stuff on it.

I only got rid of my 351W stroker because I have a 65 coupe and too much torque = no traction and I really wanted to have more of a road race set up (331 = all the HP I could ever use with less weight)

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Kellxr7
Gearhead

Posts: 129
From: Medstead SK Canada
Registered: Mar 2003

posted 03-09-2003 02:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kellxr7   Click Here to Email Kellxr7     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ok, I think Ill go with the 392, It seems like the best way to go, Sorry Steve, I just mentioned gas milage because the car will take the odd 100 mile trip, but no ,I am not overly concerned about mpg, but would like to be able to at least make it station to station

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