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Author Topic:   Copper Shim Head Gaskets ?
itlbrnmoff
Gearhead

Posts: 746
From: Indianapolis,IN.USA
Registered: Nov 2002

posted 01-10-2003 04:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for itlbrnmoff   Click Here to Email itlbrnmoff     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm looking for a cheap way to throw a little more compression in my engine, but I don't have any experience with steel or copper gaskets. My main question is, do I apply some type of sealer around the water openings on the gaskets? Or on the entire gasket? Or no sealer at all? And also, what kind of compression gain could I get from going to say...an .023 thickness copper gasket from an .041 compressed thickness Fel-pro head gasket?
Thanks, PT

------------------
Mustang Lover...
Blue Oval Bleeder...
I've got the scars to prove it...
Society's whipping post...
Low Dollar 1983 Mustang GT W/T-tops...
306 4bbl. T-5 3.45 trac-loc...it'll burn 'em off
1988 Lincoln LSC
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Just Strokin
Gearhead

Posts: 754
From: Tuscaloosa, Alabama
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 01-10-2003 10:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Just Strokin   Click Here to Email Just Strokin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
On a 4" bore engine you are only decreasing the volume by approx 3.7cc. This amount of decrease might give you maybe, just maybe 1/4 point more compression if you are lucky.

4 x 4 x .041 x .7854 x 16.387 = 8.45cc

4 x 4 x .023 x .7854 x 16.387 = 4.74cc

My thoughts, do something else besides spending the money on the copper head gaskets to get your compression up to where you want it...

------------------
Larry

No fast Fords at this time but one fine cruising 96 F350 CC DRW Power Strokin diesel.
And one rusty 64 Fairlane nick-named the Rust Bucket....And sometimes called the Money Pit...

The sounds of a brain dropping into gear.....
"Buzzzzzz.......Click"

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19704
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-10-2003 11:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Larry, I agree with your formula, but not your relults.
289 SBF with 47.7 cc = 10.6 to 1 compression
289 SBF with 52.7cc = 9 to 1 compression
5cc = 1.6 points according to FoMoCo blue print specs.

Rule of thumb is 6 cc per full point.

I would contact Cometic for some steel shim head gaskets if you are in a hurry Perry. If you can wait, I am trying to replenish my supply of OEM FoMoCo units.
As far as sealer goes, use only KW Copper Coat spray sealer liberally on both sides of the gasket.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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itlbrnmoff
Gearhead

Posts: 746
From: Indianapolis,IN.USA
Registered: Nov 2002

posted 01-10-2003 11:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for itlbrnmoff   Click Here to Email itlbrnmoff     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks Larry...
The heads I'm using are just late factory casting sbf that had a clean-up mill leaving the chambers at + or - 68 cc's...when I bought the heads, I asked about milling to increase compression and once again, was advised not to go to 10:1 compression for a street engine?? Was told I would have to retard the timing to prevent detonation, so why go 10:1?? Are these people trying NOT to sell performance?
I realize that the factory castings have small ports and all, but I still want to upgrade the cam somewhat. Compression can be regulated by cam choice...more overlap and duration for some pressure bleed off...right?
It's just in my nature to want to experiment a little instead of being stifled by the RULES...Why can't these people just give me what I want?
You can't learn without making a few mistakes...my loss? Big deal!
10:1 compression is streetable...who's fooling who?
All the popular cylinder heads have 58cc chambers, and I doubt that you need race gas to live on the street....maybe I'll get the heads milled just for the h*ll of it...geez...live and let live...

------------------
Mustang Lover...
Blue Oval Bleeder...
I've got the scars to prove it...
Society's whipping post...
Low Dollar 1983 Mustang GT W/T-tops...
306 4bbl. T-5 3.45 trac-loc...it'll burn 'em off
1988 Lincoln LSC
5.0 auto full power

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19704
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-10-2003 11:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would mill the sh*t off of those heads!

Your cam selection has more to do with detonation than actual mechanical compression. Late model LT-1 GM craparos and fireturds have 12.5 to 1 and run fine on 87 octane.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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Just Strokin
Gearhead

Posts: 754
From: Tuscaloosa, Alabama
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 01-10-2003 11:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Just Strokin   Click Here to Email Just Strokin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ohhhhhh.....Not enough coffee this morning...I see what you are saying Alex.

Doooh....

PT...sorry if I mislead you in any way....

------------------
Larry

No fast Fords at this time but one fine cruising 96 F350 CC DRW Power Strokin diesel.
And one rusty 64 Fairlane nick-named the Rust Bucket....And sometimes called the Money Pit...

The sounds of a brain dropping into gear.....
"Buzzzzzz.......Click"

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 1501
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 01-10-2003 11:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So, if I understand you guys right:

Using Larry's formula, 8.45cc - 4.74cc = 3.71cc difference in volume due to different gaskets.

And using the FoMoCo spec provided by Alex of 1.6 points of compression change for every 5cc...

3.71cc is 74% of 5cc.
74% of 1.6 compression = 1.2

So, theoretically, by changing gaskets, PT would realize an increase in compression of 1.2 points, right?

Ryan

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itlbrnmoff
Gearhead

Posts: 746
From: Indianapolis,IN.USA
Registered: Nov 2002

posted 01-10-2003 11:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for itlbrnmoff   Click Here to Email itlbrnmoff     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I was still replying when you were replying Alex...
I'm not in a hurry for the compression increase, but wanted to get the low down on the gasket sealing in case I wanted to experiment some...
If the early casting heads have the same small ports as the later castings but are using 53cc to 58cc chambers, I don't see why I can't do the same thing...
I don't know engine math, so that really helps me out...Thanks

------------------
Mustang Lover...
Blue Oval Bleeder...
I've got the scars to prove it...
Society's whipping post...
Low Dollar 1983 Mustang GT W/T-tops...
306 4bbl. T-5 3.45 trac-loc...it'll burn 'em off
1988 Lincoln LSC
5.0 auto full power

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19704
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-10-2003 11:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Correct.
Or very close to that.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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itlbrnmoff
Gearhead

Posts: 746
From: Indianapolis,IN.USA
Registered: Nov 2002

posted 01-10-2003 11:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for itlbrnmoff   Click Here to Email itlbrnmoff     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Very informative guys...I appreciate it.
Gotta take off for now...Thanks...

------------------
Mustang Lover...
Blue Oval Bleeder...
I've got the scars to prove it...
Society's whipping post...
Low Dollar 1983 Mustang GT W/T-tops...
306 4bbl. T-5 3.45 trac-loc...it'll burn 'em off
1988 Lincoln LSC
5.0 auto full power

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capri man
Gearhead

Posts: 3385
From: doerun, ga.
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 01-10-2003 06:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for capri man   Click Here to Email capri man     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
alex, i used copper cote liberly on mine and still had a water leak at each water jacket. a bottle of stop leak fixed the leak with no problem. what would it hurt to put a little silicone around the water jacket holes?

------------------
mike r
racing is real
everything else is just a game.
81 capri-7.51 @89mph 1/8
1.54 60 ft.
http://prestage.com/site/site_display.asp?SiteID=141

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itlbrnmoff
Gearhead

Posts: 746
From: Indianapolis,IN.USA
Registered: Nov 2002

posted 01-11-2003 11:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for itlbrnmoff   Click Here to Email itlbrnmoff     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I use Form-a-gasket #1 or #2 around the water jacket openings on intake gaskets and I've never had a leak...You know what that stuff is don't you? It's the non-hardening pliable black or brown messy stuff.(if you get it on your hands)
I'm wondering if a thin coat around the water jackets on both sides of the head gaskets would be OK.? Or would it raise the gasket too much and cause a cylinder sealing problem?

------------------
Mustang Lover...
Blue Oval Bleeder...
I've got the scars to prove it...
Society's whipping post...
Low Dollar 1983 Mustang GT W/T-tops...
306 4bbl. T-5 3.45 trac-loc...it'll burn 'em off
1988 Lincoln LSC
5.0 auto full power

IP: Logged

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19704
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-11-2003 11:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mike did you use real Copper Coat or Wal-Mart Copper Coat?
You can put a small bead of silicone around the water jackets onthe heads and block, but then you really have to let the copper coat set up and get very tacky or it will let the silicone slide off.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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capri man
Gearhead

Posts: 3385
From: doerun, ga.
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 01-11-2003 11:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for capri man   Click Here to Email capri man     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
i used the real stuff. i dont do wal-mart. wal-mart SUCKS big ole donky things!!! i sprayed 3-4 coats of copper-cote on them. how bout if you put the silicone on the gasket and sprayed the copper coat last?

------------------
mike r
racing is real
everything else is just a game.
81 capri-7.51 @89mph 1/8
1.54 60 ft.
http://prestage.com/site/site_display.asp?SiteID=141

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19704
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-11-2003 12:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No Mike, don't do it that way. Spray the copper coat on both sides of the gaskets liberally. Only put silicone on the block and head surface.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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capri man
Gearhead

Posts: 3385
From: doerun, ga.
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 01-11-2003 06:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for capri man   Click Here to Email capri man     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
DUH!!!! i did not think of that!!

------------------
mike r
racing is real
everything else is just a game.
81 capri-7.51 @89mph 1/8
1.54 60 ft.
http://prestage.com/site/site_display.asp?SiteID=141

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19704
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-11-2003 07:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

That's 'cause you're from Georgia!

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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capri man
Gearhead

Posts: 3385
From: doerun, ga.
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 01-11-2003 08:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for capri man   Click Here to Email capri man     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ok, you got me that time!!! but i am thinking!!!!

------------------
mike r
racing is real
everything else is just a game.
81 capri-7.51 @89mph 1/8
1.54 60 ft.
http://prestage.com/site/site_display.asp?SiteID=141

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rfedd
Gearhead

Posts: 76
From: Vancouver, WA, USA
Registered: Aug 99

posted 01-12-2003 02:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for rfedd   Click Here to Email rfedd     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Have you looked at the variety of gaskets available form Cometic. You might check out this link: http://www.cometic.com/materials/Cometic%20Gasket%20Materials.pdf
I am using their MLS (multi layer steel). A bit spendy on the front end, but re-usable (they say) up to 15 times. No re-torque required, no gasket sealers or silicone beads and they are designed for your specific bore. So if you are .040 over, you can order them that way. Thicknesses down to .010 on certain materials. Most of the top NMRA racers making 1000 + HP and running hi 6's and low 7's with and without N2O are using them these days.

Just FYI and some reading.

Ron

------------------
65 FB, 347 CI, C4, 4.56
60: 1.360
1/8: 6.17 @ 112
1/4: 9.74 @ 137

[This message has been edited by rfedd (edited 01-12-2003).]

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V8 Thumper
Gearhead

Posts: 3467
From: Orange, Ca. United States of America
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 01-12-2003 10:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper   Click Here to Email V8 Thumper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm running Cometic MLS gaskets as well... I didn't know they were re-useable

------------------
1965 GT coupe, 333ci aluminum headed/solid cammed stroker, four speed, 3.70:1 9"

All Blue Oval, no blue bottle
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/V8Thumper.html

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19704
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-12-2003 11:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Good products. I have been recomending them for select fit applications since about this time last year. They are 'spensive Lucy!

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

[This message has been edited by Moneymaker (edited 01-12-2003).]

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V8 Thumper
Gearhead

Posts: 3467
From: Orange, Ca. United States of America
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 01-12-2003 12:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper   Click Here to Email V8 Thumper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
Good products.

Oh yea
They've got an awesome tech/customer service department; people who've (seemingly) spent time on the buisness end of a ring compressor... not just 'book' educated.

Alex, what about re-using MLS gaskets? Common practice?

------------------
1965 GT coupe, 333ci aluminum headed/solid cammed stroker, four speed, 3.70:1 9"

All Blue Oval, no blue bottle
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/V8Thumper.html

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19704
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-12-2003 12:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes Todd.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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V8 Thumper
Gearhead

Posts: 3467
From: Orange, Ca. United States of America
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 01-12-2003 12:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper   Click Here to Email V8 Thumper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
When you look at it in that manner, they're not that 'spensive at all

------------------
1965 GT coupe, 333ci aluminum headed/solid cammed stroker, four speed, 3.70:1 9"

All Blue Oval, no blue bottle
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/V8Thumper.html

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rfedd
Gearhead

Posts: 76
From: Vancouver, WA, USA
Registered: Aug 99

posted 01-12-2003 02:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rfedd   Click Here to Email rfedd     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
On the re-use issue.... they claim up to 5 times under driving/racing conditions, and I was told up to 15 times when doing engine dyno work with the MLS.

Ron

------------------
65 FB, 347 CI, C4, 4.56
60: 1.360
1/8: 6.17 @ 112
1/4: 9.74 @ 137

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