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Author Topic:   Questionable Machine Work
itlbrnmoff
Gearhead

Posts: 545
From: Indianapolis,IN.USA
Registered: Nov 2002

posted 01-05-2003 05:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for itlbrnmoff   Click Here to Email itlbrnmoff     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I had a question about oil consumption, but I replied in N2O Mike's thread "I'm starting to hate this engine"...
If anyone gets a chance,can you read my reply over in that thread and maybe help me on that one? Sorry I didn't post it as a topic...

------------------
Mustang Lover...
Blue Oval Bleeder...
I've got the scars to prove it...
Society's whipping post...
Low Dollar 1983 Mustang GT W/T-tops...
306 4bbl. T-5 3.45 trac-loc...it'll burn 'em off
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 31026
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 01-05-2003 06:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by itlbrnmoff:
If anyone gets a chance,can you read my reply over in that thread and maybe help me on that one? Sorry I didn't post it as a topic...

Problem easily solved:

quote:
Originally posted by itlbrnmoff:
On the subject of questionable machining...I think I took my block to the wrong shop also. I was more restricted to budget than race quality...
It was a local outfit that I'd noticed was in business a long time...I didn't really shop around. I had a bad feeling about the place when the owner advised against honing the block for moly rings...he said the first time the engine overheats, the moly coating would flake off, ruining the ring seal...is this true?
So, me being a first timer, I didn't know if the hone was what I asked for or not... I do know that the .030+ ring gaps were inconsistent from bore to bore and larger than the rule of thumb .04 per inch of bore...thus showing me I didn't get what I asked for.
I plastigauged the crank journals and it was OK on rod and mains, so, I went ahead and assembled the engine, although I have ring gaps more suited to a nitrous or supercharged application...
Do you think I could get by with tearing it down and re-honing myself and installing some better file-fit rings? The engine has less than 10k miles still, but it's using oil? I don't notice any big clouds of blue smoke while driving and there are'nt any leaks...where would it be going?
Would the HV oil pump be throwing too much up top and leaking through the valve guides?
I think this all goes back to the machine shop that might have done things "their own way", instead of what I paid for. I'm not sure if they even knew anything about a performance engine, only stock re-furbishing...
Anybody have an explanation on the "mysterious oil consumption" ?
This was my first time, and the engine runs strong, but I Think it has more potential.
I appreciate any help I can get on this.

Hey...check it out...I hope this is my lucky post number...


Sounds like that guy should stick to Briggs&Stratton engines...

Let's start with the basics: Does your engine burn oil when it's accelerating or decelerating?

------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150

Remember our sponsors, Mustangs Plus, NPD, Osborn Reproductions, and MyFordPerformance.com.

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itlbrnmoff
Gearhead

Posts: 545
From: Indianapolis,IN.USA
Registered: Nov 2002

posted 01-05-2003 06:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for itlbrnmoff   Click Here to Email itlbrnmoff     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OK...thanks for the switcharoo there...
No, that's just it Steve, I can't tell if it's burning oil, but it must be, there aren't any leaks...I had my Brother drive down the road in it once and I noticed under hard accelleration between gear shifting, there was a slight puff of blue smoke, but none after the gear change.
I guess what I'm trying to figure out is, did the machine shop screw up the overbore and now my rings are useless, or, are the bronze lined valve guides worthless for controlling the oil use...
I have to put a quart of oil back in every 4 to 5 times I take it for a drive...
I'm stumped...

------------------
Mustang Lover...
Blue Oval Bleeder...
I've got the scars to prove it...
Society's whipping post...
Low Dollar 1983 Mustang GT W/T-tops...
306 4bbl. T-5 3.45 trac-loc...it'll burn 'em off
1988 Lincoln LSC
5.0 auto full power

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 31026
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 01-05-2003 07:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If there's a puff of smoke while changing gears, that indicates valve seals or valve guides. Engine vacuum actually sucks the oil through the guides. If your rings were bad, the engine would smoke under acceleration as the oil overcomes the rings under power.

------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150

Remember our sponsors, Mustangs Plus, NPD, Osborn Reproductions, and MyFordPerformance.com.

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 18704
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-05-2003 08:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Three questions?
1) how many miles are on it since the rebuild?
2) what type of valve seals did they use?
3) did you use moly rings?

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Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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itlbrnmoff
Gearhead

Posts: 545
From: Indianapolis,IN.USA
Registered: Nov 2002

posted 01-05-2003 09:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for itlbrnmoff   Click Here to Email itlbrnmoff     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That makes sense Steve, but what explains the ring gaps being so large ranging from .025 to .030 in different bores?
Did the machinist bore .030+ from the 4.00 bore, or .030+ from where it was worn to? It seems like it would be simple enough to change a bore to 4.030 from 4.00...
Or could it be the rings not sized consistently?
If I only would've had measuring tools, I could've confronted the machine shop if there was an obvious screw up on their part...
At the time, blueprinting an engine was beyond me...I was in too big of a hurry to see if this engine was going to run.
So...maybe the stock pedestal rocker arms screwed up the valve guides in a few hundred miles from improper geometry?
Or...the place that built the heads didn't have the clearance right in the first place?


Let this be a lesson to any young bucks out there who might be building their first engine...
Have the machine shop show you the measurements physically before accepting their work, unless you have access to measuring tools.

Have your pistons fitted to the bores at time of machining...I think I bought my pistons after the block machining to make sure the bores came out to 4.030?

Use file-fit rings if you don't want a new engine that has specs like a 50,000 mile engine.

Use roller tip rockers with bronze valve guides because the stock pedestal rockers will destroy the bronze guides.

If any of this is not correct,please anyone, feel free to comment...

Like I said, this was my first engine 7 yrs. ago...I think now, I might be seeing the picture alot more [email protected]#$%&*#$

------------------
Mustang Lover...
Blue Oval Bleeder...
I've got the scars to prove it...
Society's whipping post...
Low Dollar 1983 Mustang GT W/T-tops...
306 4bbl. T-5 3.45 trac-loc...it'll burn 'em off
1988 Lincoln LSC
5.0 auto full power

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itlbrnmoff
Gearhead

Posts: 545
From: Indianapolis,IN.USA
Registered: Nov 2002

posted 01-05-2003 09:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for itlbrnmoff   Click Here to Email itlbrnmoff     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well Alex, I don't know the exact amount of miles, I just know the car hasn't been driven much at all, that's why I'm saying under 10,000 miles.

The heads were assembled with umbrella type seals, and I even changed 'em once to try to figure out the problem.

I used Sealed Power single moly rings that came with the rebuild kit I ordered from a different source than the machine shop.

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 18704
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-05-2003 10:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mistake #1
Never use stock umbrella type seals on a HP engine.
Mistake #2
Never use moly rings without file fitting them. The are sized differently which is why they are available in .005 oversizes. (I never use them on street engines anyway. They are too hard on the walls.)
Recourse: Get some slide on PC type neoprene positive seals for starters and replace the umbrella ones.

I have used bronze valve guide inserts or replacment guids on stock heads for almost 30 years now with ZERO difficulties as have about 2-300 other engine builders/machinists that I know. That is not your problem unless your valve geometry is so far off that you just wore the guides out.
I sinceerly doubt that though Perry. You would have had to be setting the lash on the retainer insted of the valve tip for it to be that far off.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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itlbrnmoff
Gearhead

Posts: 545
From: Indianapolis,IN.USA
Registered: Nov 2002

posted 01-05-2003 10:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for itlbrnmoff   Click Here to Email itlbrnmoff     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Alex...I'll try some of those seals because what You and Steve both said sounds like a valve seal problem combined with the HV oil pump = oil use...
So, what to do about the rings? Larger ring gaps = excess blowby and lost power,Right?
So get regular cast rings, or file-fit moly?
(If valve seals don't cure the oil use)

I wasn't certain on the bronze valve guide issue...I read that somewhere before, but it seemed believeable that the stock pedestal rockers that just rub the top of the valve would rock the valve excessively causing the softer alloy guide to wear prematurely...
But what do I really know? I assembled a smoker...

Thanks for your expert advice....

------------------
Mustang Lover...
Blue Oval Bleeder...
I've got the scars to prove it...
Society's whipping post...
Low Dollar 1983 Mustang GT W/T-tops...
306 4bbl. T-5 3.45 trac-loc...it'll burn 'em off
1988 Lincoln LSC
5.0 auto full power

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 18704
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-05-2003 10:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Seriously, perform a compression check. Depending on your camshaft c/l if you have 150 lbs or more then I would not worry about a thing.
Spend a few hours installing the seals and rock on.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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Robert K
Gearhead

Posts: 476
From: Nashville, TN
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 01-06-2003 09:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert K   Click Here to Email Robert K     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
One additional question......
What type of valve covers are you running ? Do they have internal baffles ? If they don't and you're running a PCV valve then that's your oil consumption problem.

------------------
67convertible 289/auto
65fastback 302/4sp

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itlbrnmoff
Gearhead

Posts: 545
From: Indianapolis,IN.USA
Registered: Nov 2002

posted 01-07-2003 04:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for itlbrnmoff   Click Here to Email itlbrnmoff     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The valve covers DO have baffles. I considered that PCV cause at first, but ruled it out...after changing the valve seals on the already newly rebuilt heads, I was too quick to assume it is a ring problem...
I haven't gotten around to it yet,but I will be trying the PC seals next...if that doesn't cure the problem, I'm pulling the engine...something isn't right.

------------------
Mustang Lover...
Blue Oval Bleeder...
I've got the scars to prove it...
Society's whipping post...
Low Dollar 1983 Mustang GT W/T-tops...
306 4bbl. T-5 3.45 trac-loc...it'll burn 'em off
1988 Lincoln LSC
5.0 auto full power

IP: Logged

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