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Author Topic:   Questions re head & main cap bolts, Hard Blok
futurattraction
Gearhead

Posts: 106
From: Iowa City, IA
Registered: Oct 2001

posted 01-01-2003 09:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for futurattraction   Click Here to Email futurattraction     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have some questions for those of you who are machinists by trade, and/or experienced engine builders... Iíve got a 351C block that was originally machined a number of years ago. It was sonic tested, bored/honed .030 with plates, decks trued, and mains line honed. Unfortunately, the project stalled when I met my future wife (less time and less money at the time). In the meantime my plans have changed. In the last year Iíve started collecting parts to build a 3.85 stroke street/strip engine. Although I canít say absolutely, I think itís a safe bet that, when originally bolted together for machining, the head and main cap bolts were used pieces (less money and experience at the time). Also, I am planning to use Hard Blok and do a partial fill to reinforce the walls. Iíve read that Hard Blok causes minimal to no distortion after it cures. I DO plan to use an oil cooler. My questions are:

1. Since funds arenít a problem at this point, am I be further ahead to get ARP bolts and stick to that method of fastening?

2. Would the higher tensile strength of ARP bolts place different stresses on the block than the original Ford pieces?

3. Do I have the option of using studs on the bottom and/or top ends of the engine? Iíve read and/or heard that studs place different stresses on the block than do bolts, so machined surfaces may distort differently. A related question: would using Hard Blok create a more stable situation in which to use head studs than if the block were unfilled?

4. For street/strip usage, how high in the water jackets would anyone recommend that Hard Blok be used? 1-1/2Ē from deck surface? 2Ē from deck surface? Other?

5. Just to be sure that the bores havenít changed after filling, canít the cylinders simply be ďtouched upĒ, if they need to be opened up a tad? I realize that, ideally, machining should be done after filling, but from a couple other threads I read on here, it appears it will work after machining.

Sorry for the length of my post...

Thanks for whatever insight/experiences anybody may be able to provide.
Scott

------------------
1979 Fairmont Futura, 351C w/Aussie heads, Comp Magnum 280, ProMustang headers, 3" exhaust w/Flowmasters
C6 w/10" converter
9-inch, 31 spl w/3.70s & trac-lok
suspension changes coming.

http://www.avalon.net/~spopham/futurattraction.htm

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Dad Vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 540
From: Moscow, Iowa, USA
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 01-01-2003 10:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dad Vishus   Click Here to Email Dad Vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I won't pretend to be able to answer most of this, but I can tell you that KV and I filled a block for race use only on alky and we filled it till the mud was coming out the water pump ports. We actually had to chip some out of the port on one side after it had cured.

I wouldn't think that would work very well for a street motor on gas. Not having ever done it, I'm not sure if I would fill it at all for the street.

Hey, Futura, we are pretty close. I'm only 40 miles from Iowa City. Maybe we should hook up sometime.

------------------
63 Falcon 377 Cleveland stroker Flying Toilet alchohol injection. 6.19 @ 110 MPH 1/8 mile
2002 Ranger FX4 daily driver
2000 F350 PSD Crew cab dually - Like commuting in a B52!!
98 US Cargo Phantom II 28'

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futurattraction
Gearhead

Posts: 106
From: Iowa City, IA
Registered: Oct 2001

posted 01-01-2003 10:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for futurattraction   Click Here to Email futurattraction     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey DV!
Thanks for your reply. Yeah, I knew you and KV were down in that part of the state. I'm assuming Kid is still down in N Carolina.

This block filling question is sort of darned if you do and darned if you don't. I don't like the idea of adding weight to the front end of the car and reducing cooling, though I've read a couple places that with a good cooling (water and oil) filling doesn't have to be a bad thing. I'd like to do what I can to reinforce the cylinders. It's also important to realize that this isn't a daily driver by any stretch of the imagination. Cooling with the current engine doesn't seem to present any problems. Hopefully a new mill wouldn't cause a problem either.

If it works out sometime it'd be fun to meet you...

Take care!
Scott

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Dad Vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 540
From: Moscow, Iowa, USA
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 01-01-2003 10:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dad Vishus   Click Here to Email Dad Vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We ran gas some with filled blocks and they got a little hot sometimes at the track. The Cleveland in my Falcon is filled about halfway, but again thats on alky. Injected alky motors seem to have more trouble getting warm enough than keeping cooled.

I've kicked around a North Central M&M doodah sometime next Summer and gotten some interest. I thought having it at Eddyville or Cordova or Earlville or someplace where folks could race or just socialize or whatever would be fun. Maybe at a 2 day race would work out, but nobody has any schedules up yet. I'm not real fussy where its held.

I'll post something when a little more info. is available.

------------------
63 Falcon 377 Cleveland stroker Flying Toilet alchohol injection. 6.19 @ 110 MPH 1/8 mile
2002 Ranger FX4 daily driver
2000 F350 PSD Crew cab dually - Like commuting in a B52!!
98 US Cargo Phantom II 28'

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jsracingbbf
Gearhead

Posts: 1677
From: Batesville,MS. , U.S.A.
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 01-01-2003 11:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jsracingbbf   Click Here to Email jsracingbbf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by futurattraction:
I have some questions for those of you who are machinists by trade, and/or experienced engine builders.


1.Since funds arenít a problem at this point, am I be further ahead to get ARP bolts and stick to that method of fastening?

2.Would the higher tensile strength of ARP bolts place different stresses on the block than the original Ford pieces?

3.Do I have the option of using studs on the bottom and/or top ends of the engine? Iíve read and/or heard that studs place different stresses on the block than do bolts, so machined surfaces may distort differently. A related question: would using Hard Blok create a more stable situation in which to use head studs than if the block were unfilled?

4.For street/strip usage, how high in the water jackets would anyone recommend that Hard Blok be used? 1-1/2Ē from deck surface? 2Ē from deck surface? Other?

5. Just to be sure that the bores havenít changed after filling, canít the cylinders simply be ďtouched upĒ, if they need to be opened up a tad? I realize that, ideally, machining should be done after filling, but from a couple other threads I read on here, it appears it will work after machining.


Scott,
I know a machinist or two but I am far from a machinist. I've built a few bracket motors that have lasted, some haven't. I guess I'll throw my 02 cents in anyway.

1. I would use the ARP's

2.I have no idea about the diff stresses BUT whatever stress the block would probably stay together better with the ARP bolts/studs

3. I use the studs, most machinsts/builders I've talked to like them better. Especially when using aluminum heads. I never really asked why, maybe they work better at keeping the caps and heads in place. I know they do help with assembly. All the big industrial engines use studs. Cooper-Bessemer, Ingersol-Rand, Clark, etc.etc.
Depending on your shock towers you might not be able to run studs. I'd at least run the bolts.
On the hard block thing. I would guess that the Hard block would make any block a more stable platform for studs, bolts or whatever fastener used.

4. I didn't use hard Block until I switched to Alky. I fill mine to the water pump holes, which leaves some room at the top of the cylinders for water to circulate. I probably wouldn't fill a street motor.

5.You can re-hone them as long as you don't take alot of material off the walls. I always filled mine first then sent it to the machine shop.
Good Luck

------------------
Jerry
69 Mustang Pro ET Drag
70 Mustang retired former footbrake car

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futurattraction
Gearhead

Posts: 106
From: Iowa City, IA
Registered: Oct 2001

posted 01-03-2003 12:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for futurattraction   Click Here to Email futurattraction     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for your reply Jerry. I appreciate your willingness to share your thoughts about both fasteners and block filling...

Scott

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