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Author Topic:   valve seals
jsracingbbf
Gearhead

Posts: 2751
From: Batesville,MS. , U.S.A.
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 12-21-2002 08:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jsracingbbf   Click Here to Email jsracingbbf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I saw a post on a BBf forum where there was much controversy about whether or not to run valve stem seals or not? Some said not on exhaust but on intake. Opinions please. Alex what say you for SBF or any motor for that matter. I left them off mine because I hate when they get torn up or something happens and they float around in the motor. Especially those little metal bands around the Teflon type. I guess my reasoning was I'd rather have a little bit of oil seep on top of the piston than chase broken valve stem seals around.

------------------
Jerry
69 Mustang Pro ET Drag
70 Mustang retired former footbrake car

"This is FORD Country, on a quiet night you can hear a chevy RUST!"

"A self assured person can be perceived as arrogant by someone who is pulling their radio flyer full of self doubt."

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 6098
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 12-21-2002 08:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I dont have any on mine. Several of the guys I used to race with didnt run any either. When we put my heads together the last time the guys in the shop didnt like the way the teflon seals fit, and decided it was better to not run any than risk running the ones we had. The stetched out so much they were afraid of the metal on them breaking and getting into the pan.

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cracing
Gearhead

Posts: 340
From: Saltillo Miss. USA
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 12-21-2002 08:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cracing   Click Here to Email cracing     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jerry; I do use them, but its just a matter of preferance, maybe a little more oil on stems without them. However it seems to me that if they have the proper clearance to start with & bronze guides as most of us use, then it doesnt really matter. A valid point about the metal bands, but the oil screen in mine is too fine to let much through.

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BAD COMPANY TILL THE DAY I DIE!!!!!

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cracing
Gearhead

Posts: 340
From: Saltillo Miss. USA
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 12-21-2002 08:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cracing   Click Here to Email cracing     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think I know the site you are talking about & it seems they are waaaay too far into getting heads to flow. Yes flow numbers are considered, but without the proper combination, they aint worth shyt. A BBF forum should cover way more subjects than that. Figure the labor it takes & if you have to pay to have it done, you are better off to buy a NEW set of heads, jmho. Sorry to go off topic, but that is why I quit reading there, and all those damned popups!

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BAD COMPANY TILL THE DAY I DIE!!!!!

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 6098
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 12-21-2002 09:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cracing:
... and all those damned popups!



The cleveland forum is the same way. All those pop ups are real irritating.

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jsracingbbf
Gearhead

Posts: 2751
From: Batesville,MS. , U.S.A.
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 12-21-2002 09:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jsracingbbf   Click Here to Email jsracingbbf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cracing:
I think I know the site you are talking about & it seems they are waaaay too far into getting heads to flow. Yes flow numbers are considered, but without the proper combination, they aint worth shyt. A BBF forum should cover way more subjects than that. Figure the labor it takes & if you have to pay to have it done, you are better off to buy a NEW set of heads, jmho. Sorry to go off topic, but that is why I quit reading there, and all those damned popups!


yes they do worry about flow too much, but they have other good topics too, like oiling problems etc... ALSO, you can download a good free pop-up killer, I'll try to post where I got mine as soon as I remember. I think it was at Cnet, downloads.com or winfiles, something like that.
Jerry

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 6098
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 12-21-2002 09:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
And on the cleveland forum they beat to death the external line theory. That and comparing intakes, always arguing that this intake or that intake is better than the strip dominator. If those guys spent half as much time actually building motors as they spend trying to over anylize them, maybe there stuff would run half as hard as it should.

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clevelandstyle
Gearhead

Posts: 1035
From: Connersville, IN
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 12-21-2002 10:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for clevelandstyle     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jsracingbbf:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by cracing:
[b] I think I know the site you are talking about & it seems they are waaaay too far into getting heads to flow. Yes flow numbers are considered, but without the proper combination, they aint worth shyt. A BBF forum should cover way more subjects than that. Figure the labor it takes & if you have to pay to have it done, you are better off to buy a NEW set of heads, jmho. Sorry to go off topic, but that is why I quit reading there, and all those damned popups!


yes they do worry about flow too much, but they have other good topics too, like oiling problems etc... ALSO, you can download a good free pop-up killer, I'll try to post where I got mine as soon as I remember. I think it was at Cnet, downloads.com or winfiles, something like that.
Jerry

[/B][/QUOTE]
You can get a free pop up stopper at panicware.com. It works great.

------------------
Ben
Grabber Green '70 Mach I 351C 4V
Robbin Egg Blue '79 Fairmont 351C 4V

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capri man
Gearhead

Posts: 6417
From: doerun, ga.
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 12-21-2002 10:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for capri man   Click Here to Email capri man     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
on the pop up subject try.
www.panicware.com it works great and is free.

------------------
mike r
racing is real
everything else is just a game.
81 capri-7.51 @89mph 1/8
1.54 60 ft.
http://prestage.com/site/site_display.asp?SiteID=141

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cracing
Gearhead

Posts: 340
From: Saltillo Miss. USA
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 12-21-2002 11:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cracing   Click Here to Email cracing     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks I downloaded it & tried on a few sites known to have a lot of pop ups, it helps.

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BAD COMPANY TILL THE DAY I DIE!!!!!

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 12-22-2002 12:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I went from using seals, to using them only on the intakes, to back to using them on both. It's really simple. Oil contamination promotes detonation and detonation kills HP.
If you want to make less HP then don't use any seals. We dynoed with and without and made more power with. We use the teeny tiny Comp teflon style seals.
Oh yeah, good seals, installed correctly, will never fall off of properly machined guides. That is a fact.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 6098
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 12-22-2002 10:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What if you are running alcohol? Does the oil contamination still cause as much detonation and loss of power?

I had heard that same thing from another builder, but wasnt sure if it applied to alchy motors or not.

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 12-22-2002 11:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Fuel has no bearing Rob.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 6098
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 12-22-2002 11:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks.

I guess next time I pull the motor down I need to put some valve seals on.

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jsracingbbf
Gearhead

Posts: 2751
From: Batesville,MS. , U.S.A.
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 12-22-2002 11:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jsracingbbf   Click Here to Email jsracingbbf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I bought that little tool that COMP sells to install those. ALex, I thought Alky was a more "forgiving" fuel as far as detonation was concerned. I sorta get what your saying, was the Dyno losses real significant? Might not be critical for a bracket car, but every little bit helps. Certainly don't want detonation. I may put mine back on next tear down now that I hear your results. Makes sense. Thanks

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 12-22-2002 11:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Detonation is an engines worst enemy. It hurts valves, rings, pistons.
When you watch the nitro cars on TV and they start eating themselves up, mot of the time it is due to detonation caused by a lean condition. Burning oil creats more heat. Excess heat causes detonation.
To answer your question Jerry, about 8-9 HP at 8500 RPM on my stuff. Larger, higher compresion engines will suffer a greater loss.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 6098
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 12-22-2002 11:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Not to change subjects,
but I bet your motor at 8500 rpm on the dyno sounds awesome!

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 12-22-2002 11:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
RiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnG!

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 2419
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 12-22-2002 12:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I like the solid rubber seals with the teflon inserts around the stem. I don't like the solid teflon seals. These have plenty of 'give' to them, and no metal parts.

Good Luck!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 12-22-2002 12:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Those are the Viton seals Mike. We use a lot of them also, but only on engines that will never see the other side of 7000 RPM.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

[This message has been edited by Moneymaker (edited 12-22-2002).]

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cracing
Gearhead

Posts: 340
From: Saltillo Miss. USA
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 12-22-2002 12:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cracing   Click Here to Email cracing     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Alex; Have you done any tests with the top oil & without on alky? And what was the HP diff at say 6500 vs the 8500 you mentioned?

------------------
BAD COMPANY TILL THE DAY I DIE!!!!!

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 12-22-2002 01:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We never did any testing on alcohol. Don't use it, not need to test it.
I don't remember the lower HP difference, only the peak.

Why beat a dead horse? If you don't want to use seals, then don't.

All I'm saying is that I have tried them both ways, on several style engines, with the same results everytime. There is zero advantage to running without seals. Especially if you set the guide clearances as they should be. Fouled plugs is another consideration.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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cracing
Gearhead

Posts: 340
From: Saltillo Miss. USA
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 12-22-2002 02:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cracing   Click Here to Email cracing     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Alex; Dont get your panties in a wad! I was just asking if you had any reference material! I DO use the seals,and was asking about the oil used in alky for my info or anyone else that reads it too. Because the thought occured to me, that oil is going into the combustion chamber regardless if you use seals or not. I was only asking, damn!

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BAD COMPANY TILL THE DAY I DIE!!!!!

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 12-22-2002 02:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cracing:
Alex; Dont get your panties in a wad! I was just asking if you had any reference material! I was only asking, damn!


I don't wear panties!

I prefer thong underwear personally if you must know.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 6098
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 12-22-2002 03:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
I prefer thong underwear personally if you must know.



AAAAHHHH!!!!!!!!


Information overload!!!!

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V8 Thumper
Gearhead

Posts: 4377
From: Arizona
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 12-22-2002 03:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper   Click Here to Email V8 Thumper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kid vishus:
AAAAHHHH!!!!!!!!



I'm trying very hard to not picture that... DAMN IT

------------------
1965 GT coupe, 333ci aluminum headed/solid cammed stroker, four speed, 3.70:1 9"

All Blue Oval, no blue bottle
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/V8Thumper.html

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cracing
Gearhead

Posts: 340
From: Saltillo Miss. USA
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 12-22-2002 05:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cracing   Click Here to Email cracing     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OK then dont get it pulled too tight! Just asking a ?

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jsracingbbf
Gearhead

Posts: 2751
From: Batesville,MS. , U.S.A.
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 12-22-2002 05:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jsracingbbf   Click Here to Email jsracingbbf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Boy this thread went to the gutter pretty quick. One mention of panties and the drool hits the floor. I'm like KV, there are somethings I just don't need to know!
Thanks for the tips Alex, about the valve seals I mean.
Jerry

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 12-22-2002 06:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh all right.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

IP: Logged

cracing
Gearhead

Posts: 340
From: Saltillo Miss. USA
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 12-22-2002 06:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cracing   Click Here to Email cracing     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey V8 Thumper, Do you know where Ash Street is? Next to El Camino Real Park? One of my sisters lives there, another in Garden Grove,another in Huntington Beach. One brother in law & nephew have a band called Manskinney & The Big Boys. How small the world gets nowdays.

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