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Author Topic:   Titanium Valves
Daniel Jones
Gearhead

Posts: 575
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: Aug 99

posted 12-17-2002 06:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daniel Jones   Click Here to Email Daniel Jones     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A guy I know is offering me a set on new TRW titanium valves for a
fraction of cost. The valves have steel tips and coated stems (he
said Teflon but my guess is molybdenum) and are for 351C-4V heads.
If I get them, they will go in a pair of A3 Motorsport high port
heads on a 408 cube Cleveland stroker for my mainly street-driven
Pantera. I don't really need them but am still considering my
options, so I need to educate myself on titanium valves. Here's
what I think I know...

The main benefit of titanium is reduced weight which allows a higher
RPM before valve float for the same spring pressure. Alternatively,
lower spring pressures can be used for a given RPM limit. A side
benefit may be increased valve spring life. Titanium is about 40%
lighter than steel and has greater strength per weight than steel, but
isn't as strong per volume. However, titanium retains its strength
better as temperature increases. Also, practically all titanium products
use certified aerospace materials, unlike the materials used in many
stainless steel valves.

Due to the stem coating, guide material compatibility is not an issue
but guide clearance might be since titanium has a different thermal
expansion than stainless steels. Titanium can take much higher
temperatures than stainless steel but they do not take impact loads
as well, so the tips are usually made of steel (either welded to the
stems or pressed-in tips). For the same reason, the seats and guides
should be relatively soft. Cast iron or beryllium-copper are usually
indicated. You don't want something hard like Stellite seats. My
A3's have cast iron seats and guides which Ford claims are titanium
compatible. I discussed the issue of titanium valves briefly with a
local circle track engine builder and he walked over to a drawer and
pulled out a set of titanium valves that were razor sharp. He said it
happened after only a couple of weekends of racing. I'm not sure what
he was running for seats but I'd guess there was some sort of dissimilar
materials issue, though it could have also been a fuel issue.

Titanium tends to gall easily, so lapping the valves/seats is out.
Should use some sort of an interference (44/45 or 45/46 degree)
seat geometry. Several places sell special coolants or coolant
additives for grinding titanium valves and say it gives a smoother
finish.

One circle track engine builder I spoke to says they tend to run them
only on the intake, as they've had them crack, chip, or even shatter
on the exhaust, due to the heat. He also indicated the seats need to
have less than 0.001" total runout, when checked on a runout indicator.
One of the guys in the Pantera club mentioned his father holds several
patents for titanium manufacturing processes and talked him out of
using Ti valves. He claims it is very difficult to keep voids from
forming and the voids are what causes the exhausts valves to chip or
crack.

A friend of mine is an engine builder and would also like to gain some
experience with titanium and seems to think they would be fine on the
street, given the lower valve spring loads and RPM. He's offered to
install new seats and guides in the heads if I run into any problems.

Anyone here have experience with titanium valves? Any input greatly
appreciated.

Dan Jones

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 21725
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 12-18-2002 12:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh boy, I think I'd better answer this one on word first as it will take some time.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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Daniel Jones
Gearhead

Posts: 575
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: Aug 99

posted 12-18-2002 03:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daniel Jones   Click Here to Email Daniel Jones     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Alex,

Thanks much. I look forward to you answer.

Dan Jones

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TomP
Gearhead

Posts: 5025
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99

posted 12-20-2002 10:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for TomP   Click Here to Email TomP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Don't the hi-port SVO heads use much longer valves?

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Daniel Jones
Gearhead

Posts: 575
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: Aug 99

posted 12-23-2002 10:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daniel Jones   Click Here to Email Daniel Jones     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
> Oh boy, I think I'd better answer this one on word first as it will take some time.
Hey Alex, I'm back. I'm stuck in Ohio waiting on axles for the '87 Mustang.
Started hearing the wump-wump-wump noise and I'd already installed axle
savers, so this set was shot. Moser can't get the new ones out until after
Chrsitmas so I won't have any parts until Monday at the earliest. In any
event, fire away with your titanium experience.
> Don't the hi-port SVO heads use much longer valves?
A3, B351, and C302 high port heads use the standard Cleveland length
valves, as well as Boss 351-style guide plates, studs, and rocker arms.
A3's even used the standard 4V diameters (2.19"/1.71"). The C302's
specified 2.15"/1.65" diameters but that's just becuase the throats were
smaller (more room for porting). The seats were the same as the A3's
and will accept 4V valves. The later Yates heads do use non-standard
valves.

Dan Jones

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 21725
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 12-24-2002 12:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm working on it on and off Dan. I just finally finished wrapping the rest of the damn Christmas presents in between trying to work.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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Daniel Jones
Gearhead

Posts: 575
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: Aug 99

posted 12-24-2002 10:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daniel Jones   Click Here to Email Daniel Jones     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Take your time Alex. I'm not going anywhere. Grr...

Dan "waiting on axles" Jones

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V8 Thumper
Gearhead

Posts: 4044
From: Orange, Ca. United States of America
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 12-24-2002 07:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper   Click Here to Email V8 Thumper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This could be one of the more educational/informative threads to come along in a while

First of all, I'm (always) impressed with Dan's attention to precision (Dan, YOU NEED TO POST MORE OFTEN ), and am very much looking forward to Alex's sermon on the topic

How about keepers and retainers? Not sure I'd need to upgrade the SS valves I already run, but I'm concidering upgrading the spring hardware

------------------
1965 GT coupe, 333ci aluminum headed/solid cammed stroker, four speed, 3.70:1 9"

All Blue Oval, no blue bottle
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/V8Thumper.html

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Daniel Jones
Gearhead

Posts: 575
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: Aug 99

posted 12-24-2002 09:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daniel Jones   Click Here to Email Daniel Jones     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
> Dan, YOU NEED TO POST MORE OFTEN

I wish I could but I'm working 6 or 7 days a week at the moment
and spare time is hard to come by. I'm having to use vacation days
to do my wrenching, as it is. If things slow down over the winter,
I'm going to try to get serious about the 351C info site for the
Pantera club, though. I just bought a nice digital camera, so I
should have pictures to go with the words.

> How about the keepers and retainers.

Titanium retainers are pretty good bang for the buck these days.
Even if I go with stainless steel valves, I'll get titanium retainers.

Dan Jones

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Daniel Jones
Gearhead

Posts: 575
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: Aug 99

posted 01-09-2003 07:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daniel Jones   Click Here to Email Daniel Jones     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Alex,

Just a reminder in case you forgot about this post. I need to make a decision soon on the titanium valves I've been offered and would appreciate any insight you can offer.

Thanks Much,
Dan Jones

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 21725
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-09-2003 08:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh yeah, I knew that I was working on something else.
Now where did I put that file.........

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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V8 Thumper
Gearhead

Posts: 4044
From: Orange, Ca. United States of America
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 01-10-2003 02:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper   Click Here to Email V8 Thumper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
TTT

I'm real curious

------------------
1965 GT coupe, 333ci aluminum headed/solid cammed stroker, four speed, 3.70:1 9"

All Blue Oval, no blue bottle
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/V8Thumper.html

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steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 7226
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 01-10-2003 10:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Alex,

You're up.
I wanna know 'bout dem titanium valve dohickies too.

SteveW

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 21725
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-12-2003 11:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Almost done.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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V8 Thumper
Gearhead

Posts: 4044
From: Orange, Ca. United States of America
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 01-12-2003 11:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper   Click Here to Email V8 Thumper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

------------------
1965 GT coupe, 333ci aluminum headed/solid cammed stroker, four speed, 3.70:1 9"

All Blue Oval, no blue bottle
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/V8Thumper.html

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Daniel Jones
Gearhead

Posts: 575
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: Aug 99

posted 01-17-2003 11:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daniel Jones   Click Here to Email Daniel Jones     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
TTT

Nag, nag, nag...

Dan Jones

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 21725
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-17-2003 11:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OH yeah. DUH! Sorry, I forgot.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 21725
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-17-2003 11:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Give me a minute to remember what I named that file.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 21725
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-17-2003 01:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Why are titanium valves used in the first place? Why did they come about?
Long before titanium valves there were sodium filled, hollow stemed valves. They were originally designed for severe duty use in trucks or stationary engines.
They were lighter and would dissipate heat at a greater rate to prolong life.
In the early sixties some FoMoCo and Mopar engineers discovered that these types of valves could succesfully be applied to their racing engine programs as valve failure was ever increasing as the RPMs came up.
Again as RPMs increased to the unheard range of 7000 for more power, valve failure once again became an issue.
Spring pressures, cam lifts all grew.
Soon engineers began experimenting with different materials and designs.
Hollow lifters, tapered push rods, stellite and titanium valves.
Titanium was not a new alloy in the mid 60's, but the technology to machine it was and very expensive. It was pretty much relegated to the aerospace and defense industry. As automotive engineers shared information with areonautical people, some guys got the bright idea to try titanium in automotive applications.
The first problem that arose was compatibility with guide material as the expansion of titanium was so radically dissimilar.
TRW being the automotive giant of the industry was tapped to produce many of these specialized valves for not only Detroit, but the aftermarket industry. They had the resourses and OEM behind them.
Soon it was discovered that raw titanium product would eat away any other metal that it came in contact with so coatings were developed to manage the wear.
As fuels became more exotic, the coatings could be washed away and gauling and wear became a factor once again.
Eventually coatings were developed to deter wear and production techniques were also fine tuned.
Now, when should or shouldn't you use titanium valves?


Part 2 a bit later.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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Daniel Jones
Gearhead

Posts: 575
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: Aug 99

posted 01-17-2003 05:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daniel Jones   Click Here to Email Daniel Jones     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
> Part 2 a bit later.

You big tease!

Dan Jones

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 21725
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-17-2003 05:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It's coming soon, I just have to proofread it.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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Buster
Gearhead

Posts: 1238
From: Orlando
Registered: May 2002

posted 01-18-2003 09:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Buster   Click Here to Email Buster     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
WoW, it must be long

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Daniel Jones
Gearhead

Posts: 575
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: Aug 99

posted 01-18-2003 07:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daniel Jones   Click Here to Email Daniel Jones     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
> WoW, it must be long

I've heard that about Alex but I figured he was just bragging!

Dan Jones

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Buster
Gearhead

Posts: 1238
From: Orlando
Registered: May 2002

posted 01-19-2003 08:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Buster   Click Here to Email Buster     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
btt

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Daniel Jones
Gearhead

Posts: 575
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: Aug 99

posted 01-20-2003 01:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daniel Jones   Click Here to Email Daniel Jones     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I didn't want it to come to this but you've forced me to
go into Carly Simon kareoke mode:

Anticipation, Anticipation
Is making me late
Is keeping me waiting!

Anticipation, Anticipation
Is making me late
Is keeping me waiting!

Anticipation, Anticipation
Is making me late
Is keeping me waiting!

Alex, you can stop the madness by posting part 2. Don't make
me sing again :-)

Dan "voice like finger nails on a chalk board" Jones

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Buster
Gearhead

Posts: 1238
From: Orlando
Registered: May 2002

posted 01-20-2003 02:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Buster   Click Here to Email Buster     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Please... I can't get that song out of my head now......

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Buster
Gearhead

Posts: 1238
From: Orlando
Registered: May 2002

posted 01-21-2003 05:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Buster   Click Here to Email Buster     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Shameless bumpage

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 21725
From: Lyons, IL, USA
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posted 01-21-2003 06:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sorry guys but I have been very busy working trying to make somewhat of a living these last few days. Things are very tight.
I have spent very little time on the computer as opposed to "normal".
I'll get it up sometime tonight.
I promise.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 7226
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 01-21-2003 08:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
I'll get it up sometime tonight.
I promise.



ALEX,

That's WAY more than I need to know.

SteveW

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 37258
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 01-22-2003 07:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Poor Beth...

------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150

Please remember our sponsors,
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kid vishus
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Posts: 5248
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 01-22-2003 07:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SteveLaRiviere:
Poor Beth...


No kidding. I guess that happens when you get old.

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SteveLaRiviere
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Posts: 37258
From: Saco, Maine
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posted 01-22-2003 07:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Think we should pitch in and buy him a crane?

------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150

Please remember our sponsors,
Mustangs Plus, NPD, Osborn Reproductions, MyFordPerformance.com, and FordRamAir.com

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steve'66
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posted 01-22-2003 07:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

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kid vishus
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From: middle of NC
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posted 01-23-2003 08:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SteveLaRiviere:
Think we should pitch in and buy him a crane?



Nah, I think a little blue pill will fix that.

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V8 Thumper
Gearhead

Posts: 4044
From: Orange, Ca. United States of America
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 01-23-2003 09:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper   Click Here to Email V8 Thumper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kid vishus:

Nah, I think a little blue pill will fix that.


I didn't know it was blue

------------------
1965 GT coupe, 333ci aluminum headed/solid cammed stroker, four speed, 3.70:1 9"

All Blue Oval, no blue bottle
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/V8Thumper.html

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SteveLaRiviere
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From: Saco, Maine
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posted 01-23-2003 09:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Viagra, the quicker pecker upper!

------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150

Please remember our sponsors,
Mustangs Plus, NPD, Osborn Reproductions, MyFordPerformance.com, and FordRamAir.com

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Buster
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Posts: 1238
From: Orlando
Registered: May 2002

posted 01-23-2003 05:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Buster   Click Here to Email Buster     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm not bumping this thread....

Whoops

[This message has been edited by Buster (edited 01-23-2003).]

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steve'66
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Posts: 7226
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
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posted 01-23-2003 10:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Buuurrrrrp,

Whoops, who did that?

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V8 Thumper
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Posts: 4044
From: Orange, Ca. United States of America
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 01-25-2003 11:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper   Click Here to Email V8 Thumper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

------------------
1965 GT coupe, 333ci aluminum headed/solid cammed stroker, four speed, 3.70:1 9"

All Blue Oval, no blue bottle
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/V8Thumper.html

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 21725
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-26-2003 11:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sorry guys but I had a mission and with your help we accomplished it. Thanks much!

And,......NO I don't need any viagra, NO I don't need a crane, extension, quicker picker upper, or any other aid.

Now...


Titanium valves have come a long way since TRW produced them.
Coatings, machining processes, valve seat materials have all improved.
On the other hand, fuels have changed dramatically. Even in racing fuels, lead percentages are very low. Lead has always been a softener or cushion for valves and seats, not an octane booster.
It is the general consensus of top engine builders that titanium valves should only be used in extreme duty applications, in aluminum heads. Titanium valves will beat seats to death, especially with spring pressures over 250 lbs.
The expansion of the aluminum head allows the seat to move in the head so as to absorb some of the shock and heat and cool the valves more evenly.
Titanium valves are very brittle, and although strong, are more susceptible to super heating and cooling. The aluminum heads help to keep the valves cooler. Before Nascar went to aluminum heads, broken valves were very common as most of you might remember. Engine builders went to great lengths inventing top oilers to help cool springs and valves.
Todays high quality domestic or European stainless steel valves are made light and strong. They also offer the benifit of better heat control.
90% of the engines that have titanium valves today are using them for the weight savings only.
Nascar, NHRA/IHRA Fuel classes and Pro Stock.
And any other sustained high RPM competition engines.
What you must remember is that these are high maintanance, DISPOSIBLE engines.
These valves rarly if ever see more than one event before they are discarded or sold.
We once took a used titanium valve and shot it with freon. We then whacked it with a hammer to see what would happen. Guess what?
It snapped! We tried the same experiment with a stainless Victory valve. The hammer just bounced.
By the way, my friend at Joe Gibbs racing has informed me that they have gone away from titanium valves in all of their super speedway engines. Failure rate was just too high.
Titanium is a wonderful alloy that has it's place in many engine componants. Even if they were legal in my SS engines, I do not think that I would ever use them with iron heads.
I would not think twice about using them in aluminum heads though, but only in extreme high RPM appplications like my own.
7500 RPM or less, I think that they would actually hurt performance as they will beat up the seat so quickly that you would lose seal.
Unless you are a maintanance fanatic like I am, and like pulling your heads apart every 5-10 passes for a "look see" I would stay away from titanium valves.

Also, having had a fair amount of experiance with TRW's titanium valves in Boss, FE, and 351C heads, I would not recomend them. No matter what guide material we used, we always galled the guide with TRW's eventually. We actually began hoarding the sodium valves when they were being phased out as they maintained power longer.
Ask any engine builder who's valves they are using or used?
We love (ed) all of the TRW products in their day becuase of their quality vs cost.
Unfortunatly time and the economy has passed them by. Just another reason why our import laws should be severly changed.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
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V8 Thumper
Gearhead

Posts: 4044
From: Orange, Ca. United States of America
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 01-26-2003 12:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper   Click Here to Email V8 Thumper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wow! Great info as always

Do you really pull your heads off every 5-10 passes?

------------------
1965 GT coupe, 333ci aluminum headed/solid cammed stroker, four speed, 3.70:1 9"

All Blue Oval, no blue bottle
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/V8Thumper.html

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Daniel Jones
Gearhead

Posts: 575
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: Aug 99

posted 01-27-2003 01:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daniel Jones   Click Here to Email Daniel Jones     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Alex,

Thanks very much for the titanium valve info. That's exactly
what I was looking for. Saved me from making an expensive
mistake.

Dan

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 21725
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-27-2003 01:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:

Do you really pull your heads off every 5-10 passes?

[/B]


Close. About every 15-25 passes.
When/if spring pressure drops dramaticly, I pull them to have a look see.
Too much toime and money invested in those C5AE-B heads to let them get ruined.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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Buster
Gearhead

Posts: 1238
From: Orlando
Registered: May 2002

posted 01-31-2003 09:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Buster   Click Here to Email Buster     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for taking the time to type all of that up...

great info. I didn't know there were so many down sides to titanium valves.

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rtp_rick
Journeyman

Posts: 10
From: Schaumburg, IL 60194
Registered: Dec 2002

posted 02-01-2003 06:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for rtp_rick   Click Here to Email rtp_rick     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have used titanium valves (both intake and exhaust) in my strictly autocross motor since 1993. I had one failure. One exhaust had the head break off after repeated over reving (8000+ rpm, I just didn't want to shift). Other than that there have been no problems, and besides the repair, have not had any guide or valve seat problems. My recent leak down test bears out a continued good seal. I run between 20 and 30 events per year, so I would say they were a good investment. I'm not too sure about street use, though. I have no experience with them in that application.

Rick Ruth

[This message has been edited by rtp_rick (edited 02-01-2003).]

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 21725
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 02-01-2003 12:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We were talking more specifically about old stock/design TRW valves Rick.

Didn't shift?
I hate when that happens.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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