The main benefit of titanium is reduced weight which allows a higher
RPM before valve float for the same spring pressure. Alternatively,
lower spring pressures can be used for a given RPM limit. A side
benefit may be increased valve spring life. Titanium is about 40%
lighter than steel and has greater strength per weight than steel, but
isn't as strong per volume. However, titanium retains its strength
better as temperature increases. Also, practically all titanium products
use certified aerospace materials, unlike the materials used in many
stainless steel valves.

Due to the stem coating, guide material compatibility is not an issue
but guide clearance might be since titanium has a different thermal
expansion than stainless steels. Titanium can take much higher
temperatures than stainless steel but they do not take impact loads
as well, so the tips are usually made of steel (either welded to the
stems or pressed-in tips). For the same reason, the seats and guides
should be relatively soft. Cast iron or beryllium-copper are usually
indicated. You don't want something hard like Stellite seats. My
A3's have cast iron seats and guides which Ford claims are titanium
compatible. I discussed the issue of titanium valves briefly with a
local circle track engine builder and he walked over to a drawer and
pulled out a set of titanium valves that were razor sharp. He said it
happened after only a couple of weekends of racing. I'm not sure what
he was running for seats but I'd guess there was some sort of dissimilar
materials issue, though it could have also been a fuel issue.

Titanium tends to gall easily, so lapping the valves/seats is out.
Should use some sort of an interference (44/45 or 45/46 degree)
seat geometry. Several places sell special coolants or coolant
additives for grinding titanium valves and say it gives a smoother
finish.

One circle track engine builder I spoke to says they tend to run them
only on the intake, as they've had them crack, chip, or even shatter
on the exhaust, due to the heat. He also indicated the seats need to
have less than 0.001" total runout, when checked on a runout indicator.
One of the guys in the Pantera club mentioned his father holds several
patents for titanium manufacturing processes and talked him out of
using Ti valves. He claims it is very difficult to keep voids from
forming and the voids are what causes the exhausts valves to chip or
crack.

A friend of mine is an engine builder and would also like to gain some
experience with titanium and seems to think they would be fine on the
street, given the lower valve spring loads and RPM. He's offered to
install new seats and guides in the heads if I run into any problems.

Anyone here have experience with titanium valves? Any input greatly
appreciated.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Thanks much. I look forward to you answer.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

First of all, I'm (always) impressed with Dan's attention to precision (Dan, YOU NEED TO POST MORE OFTEN ), and am very much looking forward to Alex's sermon on the topic

How about keepers and retainers? Not sure I'd need to upgrade the SS valves I already run, but I'm concidering upgrading the spring hardware

------------------
1965 GT coupe, 333ci aluminum headed/solid cammed stroker, four speed, 3.70:1 9"

I wish I could but I'm working 6 or 7 days a week at the moment
and spare time is hard to come by. I'm having to use vacation days
to do my wrenching, as it is. If things slow down over the winter,
I'm going to try to get serious about the 351C info site for the
Pantera club, though. I just bought a nice digital camera, so I
should have pictures to go with the words.

> How about the keepers and retainers.

Titanium retainers are pretty good bang for the buck these days.
Even if I go with stainless steel valves, I'll get titanium retainers.

Just a reminder in case you forgot about this post. I need to make a decision soon on the titanium valves I've been offered and would appreciate any insight you can offer.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

I'm real curious

------------------
1965 GT coupe, 333ci aluminum headed/solid cammed stroker, four speed, 3.70:1 9"

You're up.
I wanna know 'bout dem titanium valve dohickies too.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

------------------
1965 GT coupe, 333ci aluminum headed/solid cammed stroker, four speed, 3.70:1 9"

Nag, nag, nag...

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Part 2 a bit later.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

You big tease!

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

I've heard that about Alex but I figured he was just bragging!

Anticipation, Anticipation
Is making me late
Is keeping me waiting!

Anticipation, Anticipation
Is making me late
Is keeping me waiting!

Anticipation, Anticipation
Is making me late
Is keeping me waiting!

Alex, you can stop the madness by posting part 2. Don't make
me sing again :-)

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

quote:

---

Originally posted by Moneymaker:
I'll get it up sometime tonight.
I promise.

---

ALEX,

That's WAY more than I need to know.

------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150

quote:

---

Originally posted by SteveLaRiviere:
Poor Beth...

---

------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150

quote:

---

Originally posted by SteveLaRiviere:
Think we should pitch in and buy him a crane?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by kid vishus:

Nah, I think a little blue pill will fix that.

---

I didn't know it was blue

------------------
1965 GT coupe, 333ci aluminum headed/solid cammed stroker, four speed, 3.70:1 9"

------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150

Whoops

Whoops, who did that?

------------------
1965 GT coupe, 333ci aluminum headed/solid cammed stroker, four speed, 3.70:1 9"

And,......NO I don't need any viagra, NO I don't need a crane, extension, quicker picker upper, or any other aid.

Now...

Titanium valves have come a long way since TRW produced them.
Coatings, machining processes, valve seat materials have all improved.
On the other hand, fuels have changed dramatically. Even in racing fuels, lead percentages are very low. Lead has always been a softener or cushion for valves and seats, not an octane booster.
It is the general consensus of top engine builders that titanium valves should only be used in extreme duty applications, in aluminum heads. Titanium valves will beat seats to death, especially with spring pressures over 250 lbs.
The expansion of the aluminum head allows the seat to move in the head so as to absorb some of the shock and heat and cool the valves more evenly.
Titanium valves are very brittle, and although strong, are more susceptible to super heating and cooling. The aluminum heads help to keep the valves cooler. Before Nascar went to aluminum heads, broken valves were very common as most of you might remember. Engine builders went to great lengths inventing top oilers to help cool springs and valves.
Todays high quality domestic or European stainless steel valves are made light and strong. They also offer the benifit of better heat control.
90% of the engines that have titanium valves today are using them for the weight savings only.
Nascar, NHRA/IHRA Fuel classes and Pro Stock.
And any other sustained high RPM competition engines.
What you must remember is that these are high maintanance, DISPOSIBLE engines.
These valves rarly if ever see more than one event before they are discarded or sold.
We once took a used titanium valve and shot it with freon. We then whacked it with a hammer to see what would happen. Guess what?
It snapped! We tried the same experiment with a stainless Victory valve. The hammer just bounced.
By the way, my friend at Joe Gibbs racing has informed me that they have gone away from titanium valves in all of their super speedway engines. Failure rate was just too high.
Titanium is a wonderful alloy that has it's place in many engine componants. Even if they were legal in my SS engines, I do not think that I would ever use them with iron heads.
I would not think twice about using them in aluminum heads though, but only in extreme high RPM appplications like my own.
7500 RPM or less, I think that they would actually hurt performance as they will beat up the seat so quickly that you would lose seal.
Unless you are a maintanance fanatic like I am, and like pulling your heads apart every 5-10 passes for a "look see" I would stay away from titanium valves.

Also, having had a fair amount of experiance with TRW's titanium valves in Boss, FE, and 351C heads, I would not recomend them. No matter what guide material we used, we always galled the guide with TRW's eventually. We actually began hoarding the sodium valves when they were being phased out as they maintained power longer.
Ask any engine builder who's valves they are using or used?
We love (ed) all of the TRW products in their day becuase of their quality vs cost.
Unfortunatly time and the economy has passed them by. Just another reason why our import laws should be severly changed.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Do you really pull your heads off every 5-10 passes?

------------------
1965 GT coupe, 333ci aluminum headed/solid cammed stroker, four speed, 3.70:1 9"

Thanks very much for the titanium valve info. That's exactly
what I was looking for. Saved me from making an expensive
mistake.

quote:

---

Do you really pull your heads off every 5-10 passes?

[/B]

---

Close. About every 15-25 passes.
When/if spring pressure drops dramaticly, I pull them to have a look see.
Too much toime and money invested in those C5AE-B heads to let them get ruined.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Rick Ruth

Didn't shift?
I hate when that happens.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl