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Author Topic:   Rocker arm problem?
Dave_C
Gearhead

Posts: 1069
From: Gadsden, Al
Registered: Aug 99

posted 11-03-2002 10:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dave_C   Click Here to Email Dave_C     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi all,

I was doing a valve train inspection on my 557 BBF today before I button everything up for the last time. I wanted to inspect the roller lifters for any problems. Also removed the valve springs. The springs will get pressure checked at a machine shop this week. I bought the engine used. A first for me, but I know most of the history and have all a box full of paperwork where it was done a race engine shop.

Ran into a little something on the rocker arms. At some point in time the rockers have hit the valvespring retainers. All 16 rockers have very small marks where they have hit. Nothing deep. Just barely knocked the anodizing off. I don't think it happened with these retainers though. I checked the clearance at full lash and zero lash. At 0 and full lift and everywhere in between, turning the engine by hand. I have at least .080 clearance at all points. I think maybe that the heads were set up with different retainers/springs and the problem was discovered when turning it over and then the current retainers were installed as a cure. Again, the marks are very shallow. Barely enough to feel them with you finger.

A. Is this amount of clearance enough?
B. If not, would it hurt the rockers to use a sanding roll in this area and clearance them a little?
C. Could it even be possible for these retainers and springs to have caused the problem?

If it matters, the springs are 1.625" diameter, double + damper, 1.940" installed height with titanium retainers. Supposed to be ~700 lbs open and 240 on the seat. (I'll find out for sure this week on the pressures) Rockers are 1.73 ratio Harland Sharp.

Pics:

and

Thanks,
David Cole

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 27499
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 11-03-2002 11:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
David if you have ever seen a race engine run with clear valve covers on it you would understand. Your minor problem is exactly the reason that ALL serious engine builders have gone to a shaft system for rocker arms. This is why stud girdles were invented. The studs will deflect at high RPM with the aggresive cam grinds and high spring pressures. I would not worry about it. I see it all of the time on new/fresh engines with rocker arm studs after the first few 7000+ RPM hits.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 27499
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 11-03-2002 11:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Or,.......the previous owner floated the valves once or twice.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"

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jsracingbbf
Gearhead

Posts: 2954
From: Batesville,MS. , U.S.A.
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 11-03-2002 11:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jsracingbbf   Click Here to Email jsracingbbf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
David, Looks like to me if you have .080 now it must have been done with other retainers. I had to use some Manley offset titainium retainers on my heads, but the reason was to obtain proper spring height. Maybe the guy didn't have the right length pushrods in it before? I bet if they are hitting when you crank it you could pull one valve cover and hear it. One thing I hear from guys say who run RED's is they can hear things much better in the motor while making a pass. I'd run them. I've got a set of Harland's with over 1000 passes and counting. when do you think you'll race?

------------------
Jerry Smith
69 Mustang Pro ET Drag
70 Mustang retired former footbrake car
"Crawfish are Lucky! they get their Heads Sucked and their tails eaten!"

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jsracingbbf
Gearhead

Posts: 2954
From: Batesville,MS. , U.S.A.
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 11-03-2002 11:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jsracingbbf   Click Here to Email jsracingbbf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I just read what Alex posted and thought surely David your running a Stud girdle right? I guess that is a dumb question. I am sure you are. I saw a film once at a maintenance school and I was amazed at the way the studs deflected. You have to see it to believe it. I can't justify the expense of shaft rocker heads just yet, but maybe one day....
Jerry

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Dave_C
Gearhead

Posts: 1069
From: Gadsden, Al
Registered: Aug 99

posted 11-03-2002 11:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dave_C   Click Here to Email Dave_C     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks, guys.

Yes, it does have stud girdles. I would bet on the valve float. The engine has 25 1/8 and 10 1/4 passes on it in an 87 Mustang. Small tire, heads up type car. He shifted at 6900. I think that he a converter that was too loose and he was too high onthe shift points. I think it will need to be shifted at 6500 based on the cam and head flow cfm #'s.

Don't know when I'll race yet Jerry. Ordered the trailer this past week. Will get it in about 5 weeks. The engine is in the car. Trans came in this week. I have a short list.

1. Order converter this week, get it and install along with trans.
2. Drill/tap intake runners for injectors for the Toilet. Install intake, toilet
3. Finish plumbing the fuel lines from cell to filter to pump and return line from toilet to cell. Aeroquip stuff on order.
4. Odds N ends. Fuel shut off cable mounted, Goza scoop tray and linkage converted from carb toilet, etc.
5. Buy fresh supply of "Depends" for first few sub 5 sec passes. LOL

Later,
David Cole

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V8 Thumper
Gearhead

Posts: 4681
From: Phoenix, Arizona
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 11-04-2002 08:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper   Click Here to Email V8 Thumper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm not wanting to step into a thread I have very little experience with (quote #2)

How big a PITA are stud girdles? Once your lash is set (hot) and assuming they stay put are girdles an ordeal to deal with? Do the girdles pose any clearance headaches aside from valvecovers?

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1965 GT coupe, 333ci aluminum headed/solid cammed stroker, four speed, 3.70:1 9"

All Blue Oval, no blue bottle
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/V8Thumper.html

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jsracingbbf
Gearhead

Posts: 2954
From: Batesville,MS. , U.S.A.
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 11-04-2002 05:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jsracingbbf   Click Here to Email jsracingbbf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I suppose they can be a PITA, but they are worth the extra strength they give the studs. If you place them correctly they pose no clearance problems for anything, assuming you have the right stud girdle for your engine and tall enough valve covers. All in all I would say they are NOT an ordeal to deal with once you have your valve lash set. You can still check your lash or at least I can, on the girdles I have. Mine are Jomar made for BBF.

------------------
Jerry Smith
69 Mustang Pro ET Drag
70 Mustang retired former footbrake car
"Crawfish are Lucky! they get their Heads Sucked and their tails eaten!"

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 6590
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 11-04-2002 05:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Jomar girldes are very nice. I have seen some that appear like they would really suck to work with. The Jomars allow each cylinder to be set seperately. You dont have to take the whole thing off to set lash. The girdle on my cleveland is a Jomar. I like it alot.

On those rocker arms, I wouldnt worry about the rockers themeselves. I have seen some rockers that were ground for clearance for bigger springs that looked really terrible and the guys never had any problems with them.

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clevelandstyle
Gearhead

Posts: 1309
From: central Indiana
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 11-04-2002 05:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for clevelandstyle     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Where can you get the Jomar girdle?

------------------
Ben
Grabber Green '70 Mach I 351C 4V
Robbin Egg Blue '79 Fairmont 351C 4V

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 6590
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 11-04-2002 05:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Lunati used to sell them, and think it is still listed in their catalog.

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Dave_C
Gearhead

Posts: 1069
From: Gadsden, Al
Registered: Aug 99

posted 11-05-2002 01:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dave_C   Click Here to Email Dave_C     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Think I may have found the problem. Valve float. Looks like the previous owner may have had over-rev situation and caused the problem.

Took the valve springs in to my machine shop today and had them checked. All 16 were out of spec. Even found two broken inner springs. Time for some new springs. Supposed to have been 220 lbs seat pressure per the cam card. 14 were within 170-175 and the two with broken inners were only 150 lbs.

Time for some new springs.

BTW. I already have the lash caps and a stud girdle. Also have an adjustable pushrod and will double-check for the correct length with checking springs while it is apart.

Later,
David Cole

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jsracingbbf
Gearhead

Posts: 2954
From: Batesville,MS. , U.S.A.
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 11-05-2002 03:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jsracingbbf   Click Here to Email jsracingbbf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
David, when you get the springs in and if you don't have one I can UPS you a spring mic so you can set the springs up at right height.

Jerry

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Dave_C
Gearhead

Posts: 1069
From: Gadsden, Al
Registered: Aug 99

posted 11-05-2002 02:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dave_C   Click Here to Email Dave_C     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jsracingbbf:
David, when you get the springs in and if you don't have one I can UPS you a spring mic so you can set the springs up at right height.
Jerry

Thanks for the offer Jerry. I just bought a springs mic. I had been wanting one one, so this was a good excuse to buy one.

I just ordered some springs. I bought Comp Cams Pacaloy # 951 springs. I looked at Erson, Manley, Isky and PSI, but they didn't have the exact spring I needed. All too big or too small. I know I could have made them work by playing with shims, extended keepers, etc, but the 951's are a spot on match to what size I had. Just better material.

Later,
David Cole

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