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Author Topic:   Temp Vs wear
S/Q 2204
Gearhead

Posts: 103
From: Ozark, AL(again after a year of being deployed)
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 10-27-2002 07:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for S/Q 2204   Click Here to Email S/Q 2204     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Have always heard that with engine temps below 180 you will experience accelerated wear. Any thoughts?
Mark J

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 6590
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 10-27-2002 07:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If you are talking water temp, I dont buy into it. My race motors rarely see anything over 180*, and if it is, it's only for a very short amount of time and they dont look any different inside than my street motors that run over 180* all the time (as far as bearing and ring wear are concerned). I think oil temp is far more critical than water temp. So long as there is heat in the block, an the oil is warmed up good, I dont think the water temp plays much role in the wear of a motor.

But, I could be all wrong.

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 27499
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 10-27-2002 07:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Not if the block has been filled and the machining is done correctly. MM NEVER sees the other side of 160 in the heat of summer.

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Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"

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S/Q 2204
Gearhead

Posts: 103
From: Ozark, AL(again after a year of being deployed)
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 10-27-2002 07:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for S/Q 2204   Click Here to Email S/Q 2204     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Was refering to the guys/gals that expect to put 50,000+ on a street type rod. Water temp was the reference.
Mark

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Moneymaker
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Posts: 27499
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 10-27-2002 07:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well in the 50's and 60's, when compresssion was king, most temp guages went tilt at 200. 220 was boiling over. Normal was in the 160-180 degree range. Isn't that why they had 160 degree thermostats?

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"

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S/Q 2204
Gearhead

Posts: 103
From: Ozark, AL(again after a year of being deployed)
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 10-27-2002 08:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for S/Q 2204   Click Here to Email S/Q 2204     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Was just curious what folks thought. It was something my first machinist said. He said it was something about the oil being designed to provide the most protection at 180 or better. Do recall those time frame cars (50-60's)using a 160 thermostat, but during that time frame a car with 50,000 on it was ready for an overhaul. Probably just we have better parts these days. Did it smile?

[This message has been edited by S/Q 2204 (edited 10-27-2002).]

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 2831
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 10-29-2002 10:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Today's cars run over 200 degrees, and last 200k miles.

I've also read that lower temperatures accelerate wear. My machinist said the same thing. He indicated that the cylinders that show the most wear, are the ones at the front of the block where the cooled water first enters the engine. (the temperature differential could be a factor here, who knows)

I've seen engineering graphs that also support higher temperatures.

I've not done any tests myself, just passing along (parroting) what I've read.

Good Luck!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 2494
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 10-29-2002 01:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OK - I'll chime in:
I'd suggest that our metals and our lubricants are way better these days than of 40-50yrs ago. Because of that fact, they operate much better at higher temps; regardless if you use oil or water as the measuring point. Heck, if you run synthetic lubes, I'd say 250*F probably won't hurt much. We all know that fuel is better atomized at higher temps, allowing it to burn more completely, so we have less fuel contamination of the crankcase oil.

Just my 1.5 cents worth,
Ryan

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 27499
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 10-29-2002 02:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We (the engines) operate at higher temps today for one reason and one reason only. EMISSIONS! The trend began in the early 70's when the polititians began using the enviornment as a campain platform.

Ask some S/G or S/C (Q/R and S/R to you IHRA types)why they switched over to alcohol?

Ask some of these guys/gals how long their engines used to last when they had them set up to run at 200 degrees+ all the time for consistancy. 150-200 passes and the rings were history. Cylinder walls were egg shaped and bearings were toast. (oil has come a long way since the 80's also)
These guys and 90% of the bracket racers kept TRW in the piston business.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"

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V8 Thumper
Gearhead

Posts: 4681
From: Phoenix, Arizona
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 10-29-2002 08:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper   Click Here to Email V8 Thumper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Soooooooooo...

What is optimum operating temp, concidering all the above?

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Rustang
Gearhead

Posts: 821
From: Clarion PA
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 10-29-2002 09:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rustang   Click Here to Email Rustang     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My .02. The actual oil temp is probably more important to monitor than water temp when it comes to bearing wear. I don't think you can guaranty that every engine that operates at 180deg water temp will have 180deg oil temp. Especially if the engine has been hard blocked, for example. Those engines are notorious for high oil temps, regardless of water temp. Then when you throw in water flow and pressure, the design of water jackets (even different cylinder heads) there are alot of factors that affect optimum water temp.

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'68 mustang 351 clevor- [email protected]
'67 Stang, 351W [email protected]
'69 351C [email protected]
'78 Pickup [email protected]
'79 Pickup 460 ET=??

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Rustang
Gearhead

Posts: 821
From: Clarion PA
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 10-29-2002 09:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rustang   Click Here to Email Rustang     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ryan Wilke:
We all know that fuel is better atomized at higher temps, allowing it to burn more completely,

Doesn't cooler temps aid atomization and higher temps aid vaporization?

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 2831
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 10-29-2002 10:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I can see that full race engines operating at extreme conditions on super thin oils for that last little horsepower might have a problem with higher temperatures. But why then are there all sorts of reports saying that higher (we're not talking extreme) temperatures are good for wear?

Read near the bottome of the below address.

http://www.tpub.com/engine2/en2-47.htm

Here is a graph from the below sight...

http://performanceunlimited.com/illustrations/thermostats.html

The following is from the below address... (an excellent read)

The graph of cylinder-wall wear rate versus cylinder wall temperature tends to be bathtub-shaped, with wear increasing sharply at each temperature extreme (as you'd expect). But while two of the oils turned in very similar wear performance, one oil stood out as protecting the engine against wear at the extremes of temperature. That oil was plain SAE 30 (Straight-grade 30-weight). At either extreme of temperature, the maximum wear rate with 10W-30 was more than double that of the straight SAE30 oil. (The worst performance was turned in by straight 10-weight.)

It is important to understand how a multiviscosity oil is made. A 10W-30 multivis oil (for example) actually starts life as a 10-weight oil. Prior to fortifying the oil with additives, it consist of a straight SAE 10 base stock. Viscosity-index improvers and pour-point depressants (waxy long chain polymers) are added to give the oil added thickness at high temperature, When the 10-weight base stock would otherwise thin out terribly. The reason VI improvers work is that they change shape, depending on temperature. At low temperatures, they collapse into little balls of yarn (or at least, that's how you can picture them); at higher temperatures, they unfold into long, spindly, spaghetti-like molecules that behave a lot like normal oil molecules. At lower temps, in the collapsed state, the ball-like forms act like little ball bearings, easily sliding past each other. This is what allows the combination of a thin base stock (SAE 5, 10, or 20) and VI improvers to act like a thin oil at low temperature, but thicker oil at higher temperatures.

The trouble with VI improvers is that they are not shear-stable; they break easily once unfolded into the long, spindly, spaghetti-like form. They also combust easily, to form soot and other byproducts. And according to SAE 951035, they don't lubricate as well as an SAE oil of similar grade

http://www.eaa49.av.org/techart/str_oil.htm

This is all stuff I from a www.google.com search. Take it for what it's worth. I realize some of it doesn't have good references, and may be part of an advertiser's propaganda, but you see it all the time. The avaition stuff seems fairly well grounded... Personally, I wouldn't want to run an engine at either extreme of temperature. By 'extreme' I mean below zero, or 300+ degrees.

Good Luck!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 2494
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 10-30-2002 12:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rustang:
Doesn't cooler temps aid atomization and higher temps aid vaporization?

...I don't think so.

Actually, I think that atomization is more dependent on the delivery process. In other words, atomization is more dependent on what the nozzle spray pattern looks like & what the velocity of the air thru the carb and then thru the manifold runners. If the air/fuel mix isn't kept moving fast enough, some of the fuel will actually drop out in the runners. Some time ago, somebody offered intake gaskets with fine screens installed in them. It was claimed that the screens improved atomization of the fuel and thus promoted a more complete combustion & providing better gas mileage.

While vaporization is primarily dependent on temperature. The warmer the incoming air & fuel is, the more likely the fuel will vaporize. In addition, heating of the passageways add to ensuring the temps stay up. Fuel that is being atomized at the point of delivery (carb port) will continue becoming smaller droplets in the air stream until it's vaporized. Ideally, all of the fuel should be vaporized by the time it reaches the combustion chamber. This provides the best conditions for a complete burn, thus, you get all the energy/power out of the fuel delivered. That's why FoMoCo used ducts to carry heated air to the carb and used coolant-heated plates beneath the carb to heat the mixture as it traveled out of the carb and into the intake.....

Now you may be asking yourself, "Why then do racer's use chilled fuel boxes, chilled intercoolers, chilled air boxes, ice their intake runners, etc....?" That's because they want to cram as much fuel into the combustion chamber as they can....with the hopes that it'll provide them more power. That's why we install heavy ignitions to spark the heavy loads of fuel delivered to the combustion chamber. They don't worry about complete fuel burning. Consider when you see how much excess fuel is run thru a Top Fuel car and it's still burning raw fuel 2-ft beyond the exhaust pipes!

If I missed the mark on this, please someone correct me.

Ryan

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Rustang1
Gearhead

Posts: 110
From:
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 10-30-2002 04:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rustang1   Click Here to Email Rustang1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think chilled fuel serves more of a purpose of preventing vapor-loc than packing more fuel into the motor. I don't think the cooler temperature would have a very large affect on it's density. On the other hand, air density is greatly affected by temperature and can have a large affect on HP, if the fuel is richened to take advantage of the increased air.

I dunno

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 2494
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 11-01-2002 02:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You may be right there, Rustang1. In addition, the carb is always nice N' cool if you decide you need to change out jets or such after a run.....

Lastly, I'd think that keeping the fuel at a constant temperture should maintain some level of consistancy in the delivery mixture. Then the only variable is the incoming air temperature......

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