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  aftermarket heads for 351 cleveland

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Author Topic:   aftermarket heads for 351 cleveland
madmanmike
Journeyman

Posts: 18
From: brenham,Texas,washington
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 10-24-2002 07:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for madmanmike        Reply w/Quote
In a never ending search for horsepower and torque who makes the best aftermarket head that has the highest flow numbers with the smallest port wich would promote airspeed(torque and response)and is a direct bolt on using existing hardware ...rockers ,exhaust bolt pattern,ect....
Mike

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 29200
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 10-24-2002 08:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker        Reply w/Quote
If cost is no object then it's the FoMoCo Yates head via Kuntz & Co. in Arkadelphia Arkansas. 870-246-2595.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"

[This message has been edited by Moneymaker (edited 10-24-2002).]

Mpcoluv
Gearhead

Posts: 1421
From: Charlotte NC usa
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 10-25-2002 06:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mpcoluv        Reply w/Quote
To add to Alex's suggestion the old C302 heads are great also and they allow use of normal Cleveland valvetrain parts.
Blue thunder makes a huge port race head, and there is an Aussie "3V" aluminum head made by CHI.
If I were spending the bucks for canted valve aftermarket heads, I would switch to a Windsor style motor and fun a race style inline valve head.... Just my 2 centavos

------------------
Jim Sams
'69 mustang Coupe
372C

kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 7251
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 10-25-2002 08:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus        Reply w/Quote
What you would spend on aftermarket heads for a cleveland, you could spend on your 4v heads getting them ported and filling the ports, get almost as much cfm and power out of them, and have some money left over.

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 29200
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 10-25-2002 02:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker        Reply w/Quote
True Rob, you could get kinda close (not really) but they would not be as pretty and they would be HEAVY!

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"

kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 7251
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 10-25-2002 03:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus        Reply w/Quote
It takes a really healthy smallblock to use 365 cfm on the intakes, and I have seen more than one guy get that much, if not a little more, out of a set of factory 4v heads. The only drawback, besides the fact they are heavy, is the exhuast wont flow with a newer set of heads.

Mpcoluv
Gearhead

Posts: 1421
From: Charlotte NC usa
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 10-25-2002 04:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mpcoluv        Reply w/Quote
A local NASCAR Super Truck engine builder once told me that the C3 Yates (not SC1 version) didn't make any more power than a set of late '70s vintage pro-stock 4V heads with the port plate....
Of course he was trying to sell me a complete 342 inch late '70s vintage prostock motor...in fact he had a whole Don Hardy Mustang II from the late '70s for sale....
Maybe that's why he said the heads were so good....
But seriously, the Yates heads that show up at the Charlotte swap meet seem to flow 305 to 320cfm intake according to the sellers and flow sheets they have. You would think that since all the NASCAR shops are here in town, that Yates heads would be cheap and plentiful, but that is not the case.
In fact Ebay Yates heads are cheaper than local. Of course many of the local head have the "RYR" logo milled on the front.
The new SC1 heads however is another story. The ones Don Locido (Ultra-Pro Machining) sells flow above 375CFM and cost a small fortune.
Oh, and the Yates heads have been revised several times too I hear.

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 29200
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 10-25-2002 05:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker        Reply w/Quote
Yes, the Yates heads are revised often.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"

Dad Vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 1153
From: Moscow, Iowa, USA
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 10-25-2002 05:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dad Vishus        Reply w/Quote
So....what do ya spose my set with port plates is worth?

kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 7251
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 10-25-2002 05:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dad Vishus:
So....what do ya spose my set with port plates is worth?

He has a set of closed chamber heads that have the exhuast ports milled and the high port plates added.

Mpcoluv
Gearhead

Posts: 1421
From: Charlotte NC usa
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 10-26-2002 09:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mpcoluv        Reply w/Quote
Brodix makes a copy of the C302B heads.
http://www.brodix.com/onlinecatalog/page43-44/page43-44.html

Look at the BF-300/301.
These heads use normal canted valve valvetrain stuff (351C stuff)I think.
Edelbrock makes a intake with Thermostat housing for these heads on a 9.2" block.
If you really NEED giant port and big flow, the Blue thunders are the best deal for the money, but are entirely too big for a smaller that 427ci street/strip motor.
Now on Alex's 440W they would work fine....

madmanmike
Journeyman

Posts: 18
From: brenham,Texas,washington
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 10-26-2002 10:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for madmanmike        Reply w/Quote
are you sying that a 351 cubic inch motor cant handle the flow or is it the size of the runner that matters? Does the bore size have anything to do with it? how close the valve is to the cylinder wall? How do you get the best of both worlds ,running hard on the motor and on Nitrous cfm wise and port velocity?

Mpcoluv
Gearhead

Posts: 1421
From: Charlotte NC usa
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 10-26-2002 02:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mpcoluv        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by madmanmike:
are you sying that a 351 cubic inch motor cant handle the flow or is it the size of the runner that matters? Does the bore size have anything to do with it? how close the valve is to the cylinder wall? How do you get the best of both worlds ,running hard on the motor and on Nitrous cfm wise and port velocity?

I just said that if the motor is a Street/Strip application, then the Blue Thunder heads are overkill. If you have a race motor, then it is a different story.
I believe (someone correct me if I am wrong) but to get the most out of nitrous, you need a nitrous grind cam and the exhaust ports need to flow more than a NA motor would need.
Best of both worlds sometimes means "compromise".

kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 7251
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 10-26-2002 02:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus        Reply w/Quote
I agree with Jim. Even for a normal race motor, the blue thunder heads are too much unless you plan on building a big inch motor, or if it is a little (typical 357) inch motor, it will need to be spun 9000 rpm to work properly.

DRAGSTANG351
Journeyman

Posts: 71
From: FLORIDA
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 10-29-2002 09:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DRAGSTANG351        Reply w/Quote
I don't understand why you would think the blue thunder intake ports are so huge that you couldn't use them in a street/strip application...take a look at the ports on the blue thunder heads...there half the size of a standard 351c 4v head intake port, the only reason i'm selling these is because i want the yates exhaust port capable of flowing 250cfm out of the box on the exhaust, with about 30 minutes of work on each port they should be able to flow 350cfm on the intake and 250 on the exhaust, These blue thunder heads listed on ebay flow about 310cfm on the int. & 202cfm on the exhaust out of the box, that's not totally unstreetable i wouldn't think.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1871425802&rd=1


kelly

TomP
Gearhead

Posts: 6376
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99

posted 10-30-2002 02:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for TomP        Reply w/Quote
Considering that a 69 Boss 302 seems to have better low end power than a regular 69 302 i don't think the huge ports will hurt that much bottom end .

The heads i've seen on a local C/A Comp Elim. car don't even have the exhaust face 90 degrees to the deck anymore, these things are very tall and the exhaust ports are almost into the valve cover rails.

Mpcoluv
Gearhead

Posts: 1421
From: Charlotte NC usa
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 10-30-2002 06:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mpcoluv        Reply w/Quote
You know that you can raise the roof of the Blue thunder heads with the "Clev" exhaust port to flow in the 240 range.
Take a 4V gasket, match the factory port floor up to the exhaust gasket and scribe the interior diameter of the gasket. Grind away to the scribe lines. This raises the port roof quite a bit, and you need to drill and tap higher exhaust bolt holes.
Thsi site shows a head drilled for the "Higher" exhaust holes and tells flow data.
http://www.fordpowertrain.com/bluethunderheads.htm
BTW I have never seen a set of Yates castings that were usable for anything with only 30 minutes work.
If I already owned a set of Blue thunder heads, I would use them before selling them at a loss, then buying a set of Yates.

[This message has been edited by Mpcoluv (edited 10-30-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Mpcoluv (edited 10-30-2002).]

'69Stang
Gearhead

Posts: 205
From: Detroit, MI USA
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 10-30-2002 08:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for '69Stang        Reply w/Quote
Will the Brodix 300/301 bolt up to a 9.2" block? I'm assuming it will. What intake would need to be used?

Will they perform better than ported 4-v cleveland heads for a street/strip application?

------------------
'69 Mustang Fastback, 351C, Holley 950 HP, New Parker Funnelweb,4-v quench heads ported, 10.75:1, UD pulley, windage tray, Top Loader, 3.89 9" rear

[This message has been edited by '69Stang (edited 10-30-2002).]

DRAGSTANG351
Journeyman

Posts: 71
From: FLORIDA
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 10-30-2002 09:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for DRAGSTANG351        Reply w/Quote
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mpcoluv:
[B]You know that you can raise the roof of the Blue thunder heads with the "Clev" exhaust port to flow in the 240 range.

BTW I have never seen a set of Yates castings that were usable for anything with only 30 minutes work.
If I already owned a set of Blue thunder heads, I would use them before selling them at a loss, then buying a set of Yates.

I have thought about raising the roof on the set of blue thunder heads that i have now...They even have the bolt holes already tapped for the upper exhaust ports, I want to avoid the cost and time it will take to work the exhaust ports when i can sell them hopefully not at too much of a loss and buy a new set of blue thunder heads with a yates style exhaust ports, This way i can clean the heads up a little with no major port work and
have a pair of nice flowing heads that can always be worked if needed, So if anyone is interested in a set of blue thunder heads w/stuffed 351c 4v exhaust ports and 50cc chambers i have a set on ebay for sale.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1871425802&rd=1

thanks
kelly


Daniel Jones
Gearhead

Posts: 972
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: Aug 99

posted 10-30-2002 12:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daniel Jones        Reply w/Quote
>I don't understand why you would think the blue thunder intake ports
>are so huge that you couldn't use them in a street/strip application.

It's not the port entrance area that's the (potential) problem.
It's the fact that the area is carried all the way to the bowl,
with little tapering. For low speed operation, a reduction in area
is needed to speed up flow (and help keep fuel from dropping out of
suspension) as you move down the port.

I'm not certain the Blue Thunders wouldn't work well on the street
but Art Francis (of Blue Thunder) warned me against it. I got the
same story from a very good head porter/engine builder with lots of
A3/C302/Yates/SC1 experience after he had done his first set of
Blue Thunders. Also, one of the Pantera vendors, a Blue Thunder
dealer, just finished up a set for a customer and said they had to
put a lot of labor into unshrouding the combustion chambers to get
the to flow the numbers they were expecting. The ports required
little work but the labor cost was still high due to the unexpected
chamber work. I don't see that as a big problem for the DIY'ers.
Unshrouding the chambers is easier than porting runners.

Dan Jones

DRAGSTANG351
Journeyman

Posts: 71
From: FLORIDA
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 11-02-2002 12:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for DRAGSTANG351        Reply w/Quote

I had planned on setting my motor up with fuel injection, I want to weld FI bungs into my edelbrock victor/glidden 351Y intake w/dominator flange and i plan on running either a NOS or Wilson manifold dominator flanged throttle body, around 1250cfm with 83# injectors, I also want to buy the new F.A.S.T./DFI program for an idividual runner adjustability, I think i can make the BT. heads drivable and deadly with this setup.

kelly

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