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Author Topic:   429-460 4 bolt main caps
Dave_C
Gearhead

Posts: 1069
From: Gadsden, Al
Registered: Aug 99

posted 10-09-2002 09:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dave_C   Click Here to Email Dave_C     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
From time to time I have seen posts on this and other forums asking about 4 bolt main conversions for the 385 series engines (429-460.

Thought I would show what the caps from Engine Systems look like. Engine Systems is in Tucker, GA and is considered by many to be one of the top sources for 429-460 go fast parts. The caps are massive. Look like they belong on a CAT or Detroit diesel.

The best thing about them is that they will work with a regular production block. C8-D1 blocks are best due to thicker cylinder walls. The D1 block was used at least through 1976. Some of the other main caps out there (Milodon, etc) require a 2 bolt CJ block. These are hard to come by. The Engine Systems caps mount by machining a tongue/groove setup into the block main web. Very nice setup.

A couple of pics from my 557:

and

Later,
David Cole

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 27499
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 10-09-2002 10:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Look good Dave. How much do they cost?

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator/ non 65-66 Mustang owner sensitivity co-ordinator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA/MCA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"

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Dave_C
Gearhead

Posts: 1069
From: Gadsden, Al
Registered: Aug 99

posted 10-09-2002 10:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dave_C   Click Here to Email Dave_C     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
Look good Dave. How much do they cost?


The caps/hardware run $375. The install is ~$350. $200 for the cap install + $150 for the required line bore. Price may vary on the install, depending on what your local machine shop charges.

Not cheap, but the next step up is an A460 block @ $2K.

Later,
David Cole

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Wireman
Journeyman

Posts: 25
From: Austin Tx
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 10-09-2002 11:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Wireman   Click Here to Email Wireman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If you can find an A460 for $2k. I had to give 2.2k for mine new.

Then you are still out all if the machine work to prep it, they do not come ready from Ford.

Mine had to be decked, line honed and bored and honed with plates.
I think the best thing is to find a seasoned block.

Those are definitely some nice caps.


What size is your combo?

rd

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[img]http://www.geocities.com/wire_man/smline1.jpg[/img]

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 27499
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 10-09-2002 11:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'll tell you guys, these FoMoCo good guy race blocks are indeed outrageous!
I have two engines and "A" and a "B". Both use A-4 blocks and I have one mint spare.
I have been offered $2500 for my mint USED .020 A-4 block. It has only seen dyno time and never been installed in a car. Kuntz told me not to sell it unless I get twice that. That's what he can get for one now days that's cherry and under .030 overbored. The R-302's apparently don't hold up as well to precision machining.
I have seen used A-460's bring over $2000 regularly.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator/ non 65-66 Mustang owner sensitivity co-ordinator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA/MCA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"

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Dave_C
Gearhead

Posts: 1069
From: Gadsden, Al
Registered: Aug 99

posted 10-09-2002 11:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dave_C   Click Here to Email Dave_C     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wireman:

What size is your combo?
rd

It's a 557. 4.500 Scat crank, 6.8 h-beam rods, flat tops, 12.7:1. The block is an .080 over 68 model, filled with hard bloc.

It has Blue Thunder aluminum heads w/BBC exhaust, .770 roller cam, all the other usual stuff.

I'm almost ready to install it in my 225" RED. Just waiting on a motor plate that's being made to fit the dragster. Going to use a Flying Toilet alky system on a Victor intake.

Later,
David Cole


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BlueMule
Gearhead

Posts: 1621
From: Kent Island, MD USA M&M # 2423
Registered: Sep 2002

posted 10-10-2002 04:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for BlueMule   Click Here to Email BlueMule     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Do they offer bearing girdles to go with the 4-bolt mains? Or would that be over-kill?

------------------
-Paul

70 Mach1
79 Ranchero GT
97 Expedition XLT
00 SVT f150 Lightning 4149 of 4966
born on: 06/26/2000

[This message has been edited by BlueMule (edited 10-10-2002).]

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Just Strokin
Gearhead

Posts: 754
From: Tuscaloosa, Alabama
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 10-10-2002 07:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Just Strokin   Click Here to Email Just Strokin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dave, were these caps installed by a machine shop you use? Or by Engine systems?

I never have thought that installing these massive caps on the thin web block was a good idea. Hope you have better luck from Engine Systems and their products than I did.

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Dave_C
Gearhead

Posts: 1069
From: Gadsden, Al
Registered: Aug 99

posted 10-10-2002 04:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dave_C   Click Here to Email Dave_C     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BlueMule:
Do they offer bearing girdles to go with the 4-bolt mains? Or would that be over-kill?


I've never seen a girdle to go with them. It prob would be overkill. If these caps ever turn loose I'm sure that a girdle wouldn't help hold it together.

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Dave_C
Gearhead

Posts: 1069
From: Gadsden, Al
Registered: Aug 99

posted 10-10-2002 04:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dave_C   Click Here to Email Dave_C     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Just Strokin:
Dave, were these caps installed by a machine shop you use? Or by Engine systems?

The caps were purchased from Engine Systems and then installed by USA Racing Engines in Houston, TX. The only work actually done by Engine Systems was bushing the lifter bores and installing the oil restrictors.

I hope to have good luck with their stuff, it's my first from them, but I have known several guys with their parts that run them with no problems.

Later,
David Cole

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jsracingbbf
Gearhead

Posts: 2954
From: Batesville,MS. , U.S.A.
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 10-10-2002 09:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jsracingbbf   Click Here to Email jsracingbbf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dave, Does engine systems say what RPM this set-up is good for?


Jerry

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Dave_C
Gearhead

Posts: 1069
From: Gadsden, Al
Registered: Aug 99

posted 10-11-2002 06:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dave_C   Click Here to Email Dave_C     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jsracingbbf:
Dave, Does engine systems say what RPM this set-up is good for?
Jerry

Not any specifc rpm that I know of. I do know of one guy with a 521 that has had the conversion on the same block for 7 years and spins it to 7800. Makes a little over 900 hp.

Later,
David Cole

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Just Strokin
Gearhead

Posts: 754
From: Tuscaloosa, Alabama
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 10-11-2002 07:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Just Strokin   Click Here to Email Just Strokin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dave

Their main caps are impressive for sure and believe they do a good job, but their workmanship is lacking in my opinion. Glad to see someone else did the work on your block.....

I bought 2 blocks from them in the early 90's....one had a hairline crack in one cylinder and would never hold water that well....they only gave me a 100 credit to another block......this 2nd block had the caps like yours but, had one cylinder bored at an angle.....more than just a degree or two....

not sure what they use now days for 'hard bloc' but when i sleeved this block, it looked like an epoxy in it and had air pockets.

another buddy that you might know, wade banks, had a short block from them and it cracked 3 main webs.

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 2494
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 10-11-2002 01:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dave_C:

...bushing the lifter bores and installing the oil restrictors."

Later,
David Cole


Hey Dave,
Is bushing the lifter bores and installing oil passage restrictors in a stretched-460 one of those "You'd better do it if you want it to live" steps or just something you wanted to have done to your block?

Ryan

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Just Strokin
Gearhead

Posts: 754
From: Tuscaloosa, Alabama
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 10-11-2002 02:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Just Strokin   Click Here to Email Just Strokin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ryan,

the oil flow is very similar to the Cleveland. The #1 main feeds oil to the passenger side oil galley and then the drivers side galley is fed from the passenger side. The restrictors and/or bushings are installed to prevent all the oil from going to the top side or losing immediate oil pressure should you pop a lifter out.

------------------
Larry

No fast Fords at this time but one fine cruising 96 F350 CC DRW Power Strokin diesel.
And one rusty 64 Fairlane nick-named the Rust Bucket....And sometimes called the Money Pit...

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Dave_C
Gearhead

Posts: 1069
From: Gadsden, Al
Registered: Aug 99

posted 10-11-2002 05:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dave_C   Click Here to Email Dave_C     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ryan Wilke:
Hey Dave,
Is bushing the lifter bores and installing oil passage restrictors in a stretched-460 one of those "You'd better do it if you want it to live" steps or just something you wanted to have done to your block?
Ryan

Mine is bushed on the passenger side only. It's for oil control. Keeps it in the bottom end, notthe valve covers. Bushing the passenger side gallery is what forces more oil to the mains. It's only needed on the driver's side for a maxed out effort engine where you want to make sure that the lifter geometry is perfect.

As far as "have to" I don't know. This is my first real BBF. I tend to over-engineer my engines. Maybe spend some money on something that doesn't help performance directly, but will help longevity. From what I have learned in my research, the bushed lifter bores are not an absolute requirement until you start hitting the 6500 rpm mark. Maybe not even at 6500. No way would I go 7K without them.

The same thing for the 4 bolt caps unless you are hitting it with a 150+ shot of nitrous. I like them on mine due to the weight of the crank. The Scat 4.5 stroke crank is very heavy, puts lot's of stress on everything.

Later,
David Cole

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