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Author Topic:   My car is too slow, please advise...
65_289
Gearhead

Posts: 761
From:
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 09-28-2002 02:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 65_289   Click Here to Email 65_289     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Last night was the 1st time with the C4 with brake and 4k stall. On the 3 runs where the track's timing system didn't mess up (out of 5), here are the slips, mods in sig

3000 launch, 20psi in slicks, shocks at 3 & 2

60': 1.9017
330': 5.5209
660': 8.5749
660' mph: 79.97
1000': 11.2126
1000' mph: none
1320': 13.5121
1320' mph: 97.76

3500 launch, 20psi in slicks, shocks at 3 & 2

60': 1.9062
330': 5.5338
660': 8.5929
660' mph: 79.92
1000': 11.2333
1000' mph: none
1320': 13.5383
1320' mph: 97.48

3500 launch, 17psi in slicks, shocks at 3 & 2

60': 1.9227
330': 5.5552
660': 8.6165
660' mph: 79.73
1000': 11.2631
1000' mph: none
1320': 13.5694
1320' mph: 97.46

What's the deal? My car should be faster than this. I had the slide-a-links at 1.5 and 1 turns for the passenger & driver side, respectively, yet I could only 60' a 1.90. Did I launch too high?

------------------
1965 Coupe, Built C4 w/ brake, 4000 stall, cooler, etc, 9" N case, 4.11's, Spool, 31 spline Moser axles, Daytona pinion support, Biondo Line Lock, Ford XB3 longblock, x303 heads, B-Cam, 9:1 comp., Tri-y headers, cut-outs, Ford Racing high-torque mini-starter, Pertronix Ignitor & Flamethrower coil, 650 double pumper, Edelbrock RPM intake, K&N air, Holley electric fuel pump & AFPR, dual 2-chamber Flowmasters, Summit 3-way fronts, Rancho 5-way rears, 5-leaf springs, Slide-a-Links, Chrome Export Brace, Griffen Radiator, Comp. Eng. subs.

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steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 6522
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 09-28-2002 04:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A few comments and questions;

Did the tires spin off the line?
What slicks are you using?
The why/try headers are a bottleneck.
What's the timing set at?
How's the cam timed?
How much does the rear rise on launch?
How much does the front rise?
Front shocks at 90-10?
Lower the front shock towers by making flat mounts, for extended front end upward travel.
Take a leaf out of the 5 leaves rear springs and clamp the front of them.
And finally, make more power. 80mph in the 1/8 is pretty weak.

Tell us more and we'll be glad to help! Most of us have been there and done that.

SteveW

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steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 6522
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 09-28-2002 05:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OH,

Is your carb opening all the way when the peddle is floored?
That's for my buddy Glen.

SteveW

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65_289
Gearhead

Posts: 761
From:
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 09-28-2002 06:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 65_289   Click Here to Email 65_289     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by steve'66:
A few comments and questions;

Did the tires spin off the line?
What slicks are you using?
The why/try headers are a bottleneck.
What's the timing set at?
How's the cam timed?
How much does the rear rise on launch?
How much does the front rise?
Front shocks at 90-10?
Lower the front shock towers by making flat mounts, for extended front end upward travel.
Take a leaf out of the 5 leaves rear springs and clamp the front of them.
And finally, make more power. 80mph in the 1/8 is pretty weak.

Tell us more and we'll be glad to help! Most of us have been there and done that.

SteveW


I felt the tires spin a little on the 2nd run. Not on any other, and my dad couldn't see them spin either.

Slicks are 26x8.5 inch ET Drags, and they went 1.78 60' with the 5-speed dumping the clutch at 5500.

Why-try's are coming off as soon as I figure out whether or not to get the Super Comps coated.

Timing is 36* in by 3k. Will be locked when I get the time.

Cam is as it came in the crate engine, I can only assume straight up.

Front shocks are 90-10, not sure about how high each end rises. Will have to ask my dad to watch that next time.

I was thinking about some mono-leaf springs, but I'll look in to removing a leaf & clamping.

This engine should be capable of quicker times than I am getting. I'd like to get it going as strong as I can before I drop the $$$ on a 347 kit, port the hell out of the heads, solid roller, etc.

Did I cover everything?

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65_289
Gearhead

Posts: 761
From:
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 09-28-2002 06:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 65_289   Click Here to Email 65_289     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
And the carb is opening all the way. We have checked that before.

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steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 6522
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 09-28-2002 06:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What was the weather like when you ran?
What was its best time before?

The mph is low for the e.t. with those 60'ers.

How'd you like launching off the t-brake?

SteveW

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65_289
Gearhead

Posts: 761
From:
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 09-28-2002 07:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 65_289   Click Here to Email 65_289     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by steve'66:
What was the weather like when you ran?
What was its best time before?

The mph is low for the e.t. with those 60'ers.

How'd you like launching off the t-brake?

SteveW


It's almost like it's being choked off at the upper rpms, to me. Maybe the headers will help. Do you know of any way to check the Pertronix and see if it is ok? The previous best time was 13.4, with a 1.83 60', IIRC. The weather was similar to last night, as the 13.4 was run in March.

The brake was interesting. I wasn't expecting the car to lurch when I got on the throttle. So I had to get on the throttle a little softer than before. Once, my finger slipped off the the button & I ended up with a .19X R/T! The other times, I had .512 & .52X, and this is with regular street tires, not skinnies. It hit hard, though. Not quite as hard as a 5500rpm clutch dump with a 3.27 first gear, but still pretty hard.

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TomP
Gearhead

Posts: 4812
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99

posted 09-28-2002 07:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for TomP   Click Here to Email TomP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Something is wrong, not in suspension.

You sure the bands in that tranny aren't at 200ft lbs of torque? It sounds like a serious power defecit, or the track is at Kilamanjaro-ish altitude?

Whats the car weigh?

My Ranger was 2915 with me in it last night. The engine is a 87 5.0L with stock heads, Perf RPM, B303 cam, 1 5/8" headers, 3" single exhaust and 3.73 gears. Completely dead almost to the cord 8.5x26 MT's and yet ran 1.70 60ft and 12.84 @ 104.

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65_289
Gearhead

Posts: 761
From:
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 09-28-2002 07:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 65_289   Click Here to Email 65_289     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TomP:
Something is wrong, not in suspension.

You sure the bands in that tranny aren't at 200ft lbs of torque? It sounds like a serious power defecit, or the track is at Kilamanjaro-ish altitude?

Whats the car weigh?

My Ranger was 2915 with me in it last night. The engine is a 87 5.0L with stock heads, Perf RPM, B303 cam, 1 5/8" headers, 3" single exhaust and 3.73 gears. Completely dead almost to the cord 8.5x26 MT's and yet ran 1.70 60ft and 12.84 @ 104.


Car hasn't been weighed in a while. It weight 3100 with me, spare tire, jack, school books, gallon of antifreeze, 8" rear, A/C, 1/2 tank. Now, I have a 9" rear, but no A/C, and I race with none of that crap in the car.

Altitude is about 550ft. Well, the Tulsa Airport is 550ft, and the track is about 5 miles from it.

Like I said, it ran 13.4 at like 98 with the Tremec 3550, now it's 13.5 at 97. I just don't know where the power is going. This engine isn't running to it's potential. Maybe the why-try's are costing a tenth, 2 at the most. But where is the rest?

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TomP
Gearhead

Posts: 4812
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99

posted 09-28-2002 07:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for TomP   Click Here to Email TomP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Maybe it is the ignition? I run a Duraspark distributor with the MSD 6AL box. Otherwise it seems our engines are similar but you have better heads. I'd suspect a 65 Mustang to weigh near what my Ranger does but with much improved weight distribution (mines 1810 front and 1105 rear I also have the original front shocks (200,000+ miles)

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65_289
Gearhead

Posts: 761
From:
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 09-28-2002 07:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 65_289   Click Here to Email 65_289     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TomP:
Maybe it is the ignition? I run a Duraspark distributor with the MSD 6AL box. Otherwise it seems our engines are similar but you have better heads. I'd suspect a 65 Mustang to weigh near what my Ranger does but with much improved weight distribution (mines 1810 front and 1105 rear I also have the original front shocks (200,000+ miles)

I have wondered if the Pertronix works well with the Strip Annihilator. I wish I had an extra dizzy to test & see.

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Rory McNeil
Gearhead

Posts: 1210
From: Surrey, B.C. Canada
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 09-29-2002 11:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rory McNeil   Click Here to Email Rory McNeil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The obvious thing to me is that you went from a 5 speed manual, to an automatic. In fact, I`m suprised you are only 1 MPH slower than the 5 speed, & only being 1/10 slower in the 1/4 isn`t that bad. Although my C4 didn`t have a trans brake,& only had a 2500 rpm B&M convertor, when I switched from a C4 to a T5 5speed, my 302 Fairmont went from a best of [email protected] mph with the auto, to a best of [email protected] with the stick. Also my 10 second 428 Fairmont picked up 2 1/2 tenths & 4mph going from a fancy a$$ C6(roller bearings,low 1rst gear set, 8" convertor(5200 rpm)& Art Carr trans brake), to a Jerico 4 speed. I have never seen a properly setup stick car,with correct gearing, AND a decent driver, go quicker with an automatic.

------------------
78 Fairmont 428 4 speed [email protected]
80 Fairmont 302 5 speed [email protected]
85 Mustang NHRA Stocker under construction, 302 5 speed
59 Meteor (Canadian Ford) 2 dr sedan 332, auto
74 F350 ramp truck 390 4spd

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65_302
Gearhead

Posts: 239
From: Bixby, OK
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 09-29-2002 01:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 65_302   Click Here to Email 65_302     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
TomP: can you help me with what you mean by: "You sure the bands in that tranny aren't at 200ft lbs of torque?" What should they be? What are the characterisics of good racing performance bands?

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mustangboy
Gearhead

Posts: 652
From: Ont, Canada
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 09-29-2002 11:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mustangboy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have to agree with Rory if the only thing you did was changed from the 5-speed to the c-4 than its not surprising the car is a little slower.Its still a pretty decent et for the mph your running.

------------------
1968 mustang j-code [email protected] 1963Falcon waiting for a rebirth.

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65_289
Gearhead

Posts: 761
From:
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 09-29-2002 11:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 65_289   Click Here to Email 65_289     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mustangboy:
I have to agree with Rory if the only thing you did was changed from the 5-speed to the c-4 than its not surprising the car is a little slower.Its still a pretty decent et for the mph your running.


Well, considering how bad of a shifter I am, it is surprising!

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TomP
Gearhead

Posts: 4812
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99

posted 09-29-2002 11:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for TomP   Click Here to Email TomP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thing to do is put the stick back in and practice

The automatic absorbs power, this accounts for it slowing down. The T5 should have been much faster since the heads oughta allow that car to run well into the 12's.


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65_289
Gearhead

Posts: 761
From:
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 10-01-2002 02:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 65_289   Click Here to Email 65_289     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TomP:
Thing to do is put the stick back in and practice

The automatic absorbs power, this accounts for it slowing down. The T5 should have been much faster since the heads oughta allow that car to run well into the 12's.


That's what I can't figure out. With the same engine, except for 1.6 roller rockers instead of stock ones, and a Road Demon carb, Car Craft dyno'ed 367 at the flywheel. This engine really should have enough to get 12's, assuming traction, which I have. But 97 mph? Something's not right.

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mustangzrule
Journeyman

Posts: 87
From: Orion, MI
Registered: Sep 2002

posted 10-03-2002 03:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mustangzrule   Click Here to Email mustangzrule     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 65_289:
Cam is as it came in the crate engine, I can only assume straight up.

Could this be your HP limit? Not knowing what your .050 is, I suspect it can't be much above 215*. I don't know how you got 360 RWHP with a cam that small though. I agree with you, something isn't adding up.

A 4K stall with a 215 cam will put you out of your launch power band. You probably don't have a 3K sitting around do you?

[This message has been edited by mustangzrule (edited 10-03-2002).]

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Glens67
Gearhead

Posts: 325
From: Petaluma
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 10-03-2002 03:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glens67   Click Here to Email Glens67     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by steve'66:
OH,

Is your carb opening all the way when the peddle is floored?
That's for my buddy Glen.

SteveW


I'm here for ya buddy.

------------------
Glen
67 GT 390
65 Galaxie 500 XL 4 Speed
It was not a Red Light they gave me a Slow Tree

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65_289
Gearhead

Posts: 761
From:
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 10-03-2002 04:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 65_289   Click Here to Email 65_289     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mustangzrule:
Could this be your HP limit? Not knowing what your .050 is, I suspect it can't be much above 215*. I don't know how you got 360 RWHP with a cam that small though. I agree with you, something isn't adding up.

A 4K stall with a 215 cam will put you out of your launch power band. You probably don't have a 3K sitting around do you?

[This message has been edited by mustangzrule (edited 10-03-2002).]


The spec on the cam is 224* @ .050. On the dyno, it made peak torque at about 4100.

Where did you get 360rwhp?

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mustangzrule
Journeyman

Posts: 87
From: Orion, MI
Registered: Sep 2002

posted 10-04-2002 09:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mustangzrule   Click Here to Email mustangzrule     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 65_289:
That's what I can't figure out. With the same engine, except for 1.6 roller rockers instead of stock ones, and a Road Demon carb, Car Craft dyno'ed 367 at the flywheel. This engine really should have enough to get 12's, assuming traction, which I have. But 97 mph? Something's not right.


This is where I got the HP, but your post actually says flywheel, not rear wheel. My bad.

A [email protected] cam sounds about right for a peak of 4100 RPM with 302CID. I still think your stall is a little high though. You could increase your cam or decrease your stall and probably gain bot top end and reduced ET.

My $.02

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