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Author Topic:   Nitrous?
jsracingbbf
Gearhead

Posts: 2954
From: Batesville,MS. , U.S.A.
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 09-26-2002 01:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jsracingbbf   Click Here to Email jsracingbbf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Calling all Nitrous gurus I've never run the stuff, but I was thinking about it here lately. Not for bracket racing, maybe for a minor grudge race here and there. Anyway, how does Nitrous respond on ALKY? I've heard that you need a seperate fuel cell to run it with gas? Is this true? What would be best a plate or nozzle system. I've heard if a fuel nozzle stuck closed you could kiss your motor bye! would this be better? ebay Someone enlighten me. I think my motor can stand the stuff.

------------------
Jerry Smith
69 Mustang Pro ET Drag
70 Mustang retired former footbrake car
"Drag Racing, the most fun you can have with your clothes on"

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steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 9533
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 09-26-2002 01:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jerry,

What you've heard is true. N2O w/o the added fuel will lean it out like a cutting torch! I remember a trip to NOS in the early eighties when I was working with a guy named Waddy and NOS was just begining to make NOS systems for outboard engines. (I was having a 125 h.p. shot designed for our 225 h.p. Merc outboard race boat) There were several pistons on his desk that looked like a cutting torch had melted a 2" hole through them. He said "they went lean on the dyno".

Anyway, the modern systems will protect you from a fuel pressure loss (although not from a sticky fuel solenoid). And the technology has come a long ways since the early '80s. Don't be afraid of it, Butch or Larry will probably be along to give more insight. I've heard that gas is the best fuel to add to NOS even when the main fuel is alky too.

SteveW

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S/Q 2204
Gearhead

Posts: 103
From: Ozark, AL(again after a year of being deployed)
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 09-26-2002 05:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for S/Q 2204   Click Here to Email S/Q 2204     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jerry,
Carb or Injection? Thinking carb since you mentioned plate
Mark J-Injected 598

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jsracingbbf
Gearhead

Posts: 2954
From: Batesville,MS. , U.S.A.
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 09-26-2002 10:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jsracingbbf   Click Here to Email jsracingbbf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mark, Enderle Hat on a 514 cid BBF 13:1 comp
Jerry

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S/Q 2204
Gearhead

Posts: 103
From: Ozark, AL(again after a year of being deployed)
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 09-26-2002 11:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for S/Q 2204   Click Here to Email S/Q 2204     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Reread post {good this time)and looked at the plate. Looks like the solenoids would be kind of way too far upstream. Depending on how much you want to hit it you may think of a N2O only system(dry). These work very good with injection, quick & no extra stuff. Either one long spray bar or nozzles. If you want more info on the dry system let me know, will have to get you hooked up with my partner for details as I am away in Uncle Sam's service till December.
Mark Johnson- Hat also

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jsracingbbf
Gearhead

Posts: 2954
From: Batesville,MS. , U.S.A.
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 09-26-2002 11:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jsracingbbf   Click Here to Email jsracingbbf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wouldn't a dry system require making the nozzles or jets bigger for the mechanical fuel injection? or the bypass smaller. I really want it to run same without nitrous and then if I need it hit it. Will a dry system work like that? and Ithought you had to use gas not alky to enrichen the nitrous?
Jerry

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 6590
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 09-26-2002 12:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My buddy who runs 2 flying toilets on alchy, called a couple of places about nitrous on his motor. They all told him he had to use gas to enrichen it. But since alchy is so detonation resistant, that it works real well. He decided to not do it. Even so, last saturday, he went 5.10 in the 1/8. He wants in the 4's real badly.

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Mike Harris
Gearhead

Posts: 122
From: Oakfield, Ga USA
Registered: Jul 2002

posted 09-26-2002 07:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mike Harris   Click Here to Email Mike Harris     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jerry,
The experiences I have had with alcohol enrichment has been very hard to tune based on the difference in how fat the alcohol runs. Also, although the alcohol gives a cooling effect and gives less detonation, that actually poses problems with EGT's and the readings you get and puts you on a whole different learning curve. With the alky injection, you would keep the same fuel pressure but find yourself either changing the fuel jets down, or bringing the nitrous jets up in size to overcome the richness problems. The latter is how we did it and rather than end up squared on the jets (plate) or close to it (fogger), we came up with a wild bias on the nitrous side. I take it you are running alky on the motor? Regardless, race fuel enrichment is my suggesstion. Some of the big time nitrous gurus like Pat Musi and Jeff Prock would tell you the same. A couple of the Pro-Mod guys I know dabbled in it but had too many problems and went back to race gas. A plate will have a better hit, but the fogger is the ultimate in tunability because you can treat each cylinder as an individual motor for tuning. You can get the HP gains, plus use it for cylinder to cylinder tuning and keeping EGT's in check. As already said, you can protect against low pressure, but not a solenoid sticking. That's why a thorough check each time out and atleast a yearly rebuild on the 'noids is a very good preventive maintenance routine. Hope I have helped some.

Steve,
When you mentioned Waddy, you undoubtedly must mean Wady Hamam otherwise known as Pro-Mod Wad from NOS. He has been around since the beginning and the man knows his SH!T !! Bad thing though, he has been relieved of his duties at NOS after all his efforts, customer following, loyalty, R&D, etc. Corporate take-over giant Holley Inc which now runs NOS decided they did not need him for reasons I will not go into. All I have to say about that is....Holley SUX!!! The pencil pushers that have overtaken that company probably do not know anything automotive except where to put gas in their car. Lunati and NOS have been on a downward spiral ever since the corporate giant took them over. Later!

------------------
Mike Harris
MKZ Racing
home.isoa.net/~mharrisj

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steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 9533
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 09-26-2002 07:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mike ,

Yes that's the man! He treated me like a visiting dignitary, even though I was just plumbing the 3-2barrel intake of an outboard. LOL He also showed me his concealed 5.0 Mustang system, the plumbing and hoses were cleverly routed through OEM wiring harness material, for the street racers.
Great guy! I heard he retired, sad to hear it was corporate BS.

SteveW

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stoker
Gearhead

Posts: 159
From: folsom,cal,
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 09-26-2002 08:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for stoker   Click Here to Email stoker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
test

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Larry Jennings
Gearhead

Posts: 540
From: Redwood City, Ca. USA
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 09-26-2002 08:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Larry Jennings   Click Here to Email Larry Jennings     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It is a sad truth that "all" the companies involved in the takeover are on their way down or trashed already. I had a problem with a Holley injection system a month or so ago so I called Holley tech and got told they don't deal with end users anymore just suppliers. So I called Summit cause I had bought the crap there and they spent 3+ hours on the phone while we traced every wire and tested every piece of the system and got it working.
I was playing with an alky n2o system some years ago and talked to Mike Thermos about it, he said they had played with a big all alky dry system that showed promise on the dyno. Then I got off onto propane, nitro and gas as enrichment, but only on the drawing board since we don't have the bucks to blow a few things up getting it worked out. If I were gonna try any of it out and I was usin someone elses money I'd go with the dry nitrous + nitro cause I like fire .

------------------
Never moon a werewolf

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jsracingbbf
Gearhead

Posts: 2954
From: Batesville,MS. , U.S.A.
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 09-26-2002 08:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jsracingbbf   Click Here to Email jsracingbbf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mike, Reason I sorta thought a plate might be a good choice for me is: 1. I won't use it much and it cost less. 2. Although a solenoid may stick and reek havoc, I wouldn't have so much worry about one individual fuel nozzle sticking and causing one cylinder to melt down, the lean condition would be spread across the entire engine. ( does this make sense?)AND
Would the blower plate be a good choice? Can I leave my jets on the Alky side alone and tune the gas & nitrous seperately? Does that guy Waddy have a business now? I may need to order some solenoids if I get that plate. what about a fuel pump for the gas side? TOO many questions??

------------------
Jerry Smith
69 Mustang Pro ET Drag
70 Mustang retired former footbrake car
"Drag Racing, the most fun you can have with your clothes on"

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S/Q 2204
Gearhead

Posts: 103
From: Ozark, AL(again after a year of being deployed)
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 09-26-2002 10:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for S/Q 2204   Click Here to Email S/Q 2204     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jerry,
What is your weight and how many tenths do you want in the eighth? Quite simple when you want to shoot it, Just change the pill to return less fuel. But, like I asked, how much do you want to move it?
Mark

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jsracingbbf
Gearhead

Posts: 2954
From: Batesville,MS. , U.S.A.
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 09-27-2002 02:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jsracingbbf   Click Here to Email jsracingbbf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
2700lbs with me in it. Car was running 5.60's this last Jan. Im sure it can make 5.50's on motor. it would be nice to get a couple of tenths out of a shot of nitrous. I will NOT do a dry system though that is out.

------------------
Jerry Smith
69 Mustang Pro ET Drag
70 Mustang retired former footbrake car
"Drag Racing, the most fun you can have with your clothes on"

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Mike Harris
Gearhead

Posts: 122
From: Oakfield, Ga USA
Registered: Jul 2002

posted 09-27-2002 09:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mike Harris   Click Here to Email Mike Harris     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jerry,
If I am reading your comment right: "I wouldn't have so much worry about one individual fuel nozzle sticking and causing one cylinder to melt down, the lean condition would be spread across the entire engine.( does this make sense?)" it sounds like with the fogger set up you are concerned about sticking in one of those nozzles? The nitrous nozzles (although they call it direct port injection) are not a plunger style injector at all. It is open all the way through. The nitrous and fuel mix in the nozzle as they go into the port. Just thought you might have misunderstood that so that a stuch solenoid would affect you regardless of plate or fogger.
Okay, as far as they Ebay plate.....I do not like that set-up at all. I have not liked that setup nor had any luck with them even in single carb applications with the old "fogger plate" from 10,000 RPM and even the new one from NX. Either use a a dual plate set-up, spray bar in the intake, or fogger. I know you won't use it much, but I really think you would be happier with the fogger.
Next, on the tuning issue, use your injection and tune the car w/o nitrous using that system. When you have it right and start spraying the car and then have to tune, use the nitrous sytem for it....do not use the fuel injection to compensate for tunability issues on the bottle.
As far as Wady, I don't believe he has gone to any other company as of yet. I have heard (but not confirmed), that Edelbrock wanted him for their new line. Not sure though.
As far as a pump, you will of course have a seperate fuel cell for nitrous enrichment. Jaz makes some good ones in the one gallon size with a vent AND a return port up top. If you go do go nitrous on this combo, get the one with a return port....this is VERY important. If you get one without, plumbing one in is not hard at all. Once you do that, get with me, and I'll teach ya an old Pro-Mod trick for the fuel side of the system. Anyhow, a single Holley Blue will work fine whether sparaying 125 or 400 on it, and trust me, you might start out soft, but the need for speed will have you wanting more. Besides, you'll need the regulator that comes with the Holley Blue anyway and use the one that comes with the NOS system as a paper weight. Not sure what type vehicle you have, but you will want this fuel system mounted upstream (front of car) so that the G-forces work WITH the fuel instead of against it if it is pushing from behind (rear of car). Never too many questions Jerry. Take care!

------------------
Mike Harris
MKZ Racing
home.isoa.net/~mharrisj

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S/Q 2204
Gearhead

Posts: 103
From: Ozark, AL(again after a year of being deployed)
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 09-27-2002 11:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for S/Q 2204   Click Here to Email S/Q 2204     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jerry,
Oh well, too bad you are closed to a dry system on alcohol. 26-28 nozzle fatten up 10 =appx 150 HP. No burned plugs or pistons & no double fuel system. Ever get to watch a guy by the name of Mike Neal in a car called the FantaZ run over your way?
Good luck,
Mark J-5.0's in the 1/8th with no spray at 2700lbs

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Mike Harris
Gearhead

Posts: 122
From: Oakfield, Ga USA
Registered: Jul 2002

posted 09-28-2002 10:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mike Harris   Click Here to Email Mike Harris     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by S/Q 2204:
Jerry,
No burned plugs or pistons & no double fuel system.

No flame intended here, if you are burning plugs and pistons, particularly on just a 150 shot, it's time to get someone that can tune it.

------------------
Mike Harris
MKZ Racing
home.isoa.net/~mharrisj

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S/Q 2204
Gearhead

Posts: 103
From: Ozark, AL(again after a year of being deployed)
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 09-28-2002 09:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for S/Q 2204   Click Here to Email S/Q 2204     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mike,
None taken. As you read NO burned stuff. The point is why bother with a seperate fuel system when what you are after is not considered an Earth rotating power increase. Sounds like a waiste of $$$.
Mark J

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jsracingbbf
Gearhead

Posts: 2954
From: Batesville,MS. , U.S.A.
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 09-28-2002 11:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jsracingbbf   Click Here to Email jsracingbbf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mike, The fuel cell I have now is located at the front of my car. I have room for another one. I just happen to have another one, I was thinking about mounting up front anyway. As far as what vehicle I have, well it is my 69 Mustang race car. weight approx 2500lbs without my butt my car
Mark, I'm sure a dry system works just fine, but I run mine off of nitrous a good bit and I don't want to fatten up the jets for the Nitrous and run them that way all the time. K?
Jerry

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