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Author Topic:   Mini-Starter for 302/Stick Car...?
Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 2494
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 09-05-2002 05:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
...I'm tired of messing with these OE-sized starters that get cooked every August! Last year, I installed a homemade heat shield, but the starter was still cooked by the header! It's in a '69 Stang with a early 302 and 4spd...

#1) If I recall correctly, somebody here used a mini-starter intended for a '95 (something) on their 289/302; if so, the starter was for a '95,,, what?

#2) If so, would it still use the remotely located OE-style solenoid?

#3) Should I need a starter part number?

Thanks for any & all help, guys!
Ryan

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V8 Thumper
Gearhead

Posts: 4681
From: Phoenix, Arizona
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 09-05-2002 05:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper   Click Here to Email V8 Thumper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ford Motorsport p/n #M-11000-B50, 5.0 Super Starter. It does use the fender mount remote soleniod. I bought mine from Moneymaker Racing

[This message has been edited by V8 Thumper (edited 09-05-2002).]

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 2494
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 09-05-2002 06:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for the tip on the FRPP unit, V8 Thumper!

However, I just did a search in the '64.5 - '73 Classic Mustang' archive and determined it was "68Darkhorse", who back on 8-19-02, said he had installed a '95 starter (at a cost of $20) and it weighed 10# less than the OE unit..... now, I'm not positive what engine he was talking about; but I was assuming it was a 289/302....and I don't know about the solenoid issue.

68 Darkhorse -- Are you out there? Give us the "rest of the story"..!

Ryan

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V8 Thumper
Gearhead

Posts: 4681
From: Phoenix, Arizona
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 09-05-2002 06:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper   Click Here to Email V8 Thumper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That could be a great score, but verify the flywheel tooth count. Those later models have 164 tooth 11" flywheels (50oz imbalance), whereas our early ones have 157 (28oz). The FMS starter is a stout unit, damn well better be for $230

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clevelandstyle
Gearhead

Posts: 1309
From: central Indiana
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 09-05-2002 06:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for clevelandstyle     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ryan Wilke:
[B

#1) If I recall correctly, somebody here used a mini-starter intended for a '95 (something) on their 289/302; if so, the starter was for a '95,,, what?

[/B]


I'm thinking that was '95 truck w/5.0L

------------------
Ben
Grabber Green '70 Mach I 351C 4V
Robbin Egg Blue '79 Fairmont 351C 4V

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 27499
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 09-05-2002 07:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
91 to 95 5.0 HO starter gang. Get then at the junk yard for cheap. It is a high torque gear reduction mini starter.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator/ non 65-66 Mustang owner sensitivity co-ordinator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA/MCA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 2494
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 09-06-2002 10:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
....So, if I'm understanding everyone correctly - I CAN'T use EITHER the FRPP unit nor the '91/'95 5.0L HO starters....since they're only designed to be run with the newer 164-tooth flywheel. ...because I'm running a earlier 289/302 with the 157-tooth flywheel, I'm "SOL".....?

Does anybody know of ANYONE that makes a Hi-Torq Mini-Starter for the 157-tooth flywheel?

Thanks again for the help, guys!
Ryan

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 27499
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 09-06-2002 10:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
NO, NO, NO, NO, Ryan.
Yes YOU CAN use the FRPP or the 91-95 5.0 HO starter regardless of flywheel. 164 or 157 tooth.
I have done them both ways a million times.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator/ non 65-66 Mustang owner sensitivity co-ordinator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA/MCA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 2494
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 09-06-2002 10:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ALEX,
PLEASE ACCEPT MY APOLOGY FOR BEING SO HARD-HEADED :O -- AND THANKS A MILLION FOR CLEARING THAT UP FOR ME!

I'll be at the junkyard to get me one of those bad boys tonight!

Thanks again, Gang!
Ryan

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 2831
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 09-06-2002 11:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Whoa now...

My car has a 164 tooth STICKSHIFT flywheel.

Early stickshift cars had different starters than automatics. The late model starters are patterned off the early model automatic units. Automatic cars have no problem using these newer units. However, I believe there are some stickshift trucks out there that DO use a compatible small starter.

Way back when I went to the parts store and purchased a 5.0 mustang starter, installed it on my car, and the thing wouldn't fully disengage from the flywheel. The engine started, and spun that brand new starter about a BAZILLION rpm! 164 tooth flywheel spinning a little ~10 tooth starter just isn't fair!

Do some research and find a snout that is compatible with the original starter. Pre 5.0 stickshifts are different!

I've still got the mega heavy 60's model unit. It's been trouble free forever, and still spins the engine like its had all it's plugs removed...

Good Luck!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

[This message has been edited by n2oMike (edited 09-06-2002).]

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 2831
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 09-06-2002 06:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here's a site that has some reasonably priced smaller starters... and they have units for earlier manual trans applications. Good info on which starters came on what here as well....

http://www.pa-performance.com/searching.asp?cat=D%2E+Starter+Kits&subCat=Ford&cR=ca tegories

CVR also has starters for Fords. They have part #5056 and #5056M for cars originally equipped with a starter with a 2" nose (like my older manual tranny unit) and other numbers to fit cars that came with a 2-3/8" nose. I'm assuming this is the older automatic/82-95 interchangable auto/manual unit. These can be found at the following site.

http://www.cvrproducts.com/main.html

Here's a more informative link...

http://www.cvrproducts.com/CVR_AUTOMOTIVE.pdf

Good Luck!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

[This message has been edited by n2oMike (edited 09-06-2002).]

[This message has been edited by n2oMike (edited 09-06-2002).]

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 2831
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 09-06-2002 08:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If you scroll down the .pdf page, you'll see that they offer their protorque line, the protorque maximum, and the ultralite protorque. All are available in both the 2" and 2-3/8" nose.

Good Luck!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 27499
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 09-07-2002 11:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In 1991 FoMoCo had a series of running changes. The 4.6 was introduced and the 5.0 was on it's way out of the passenger car line.
One of the things FoMoCo did was to engineer a new starter that would work on several engine combinations and flywheel arrangments. The changed the drive and housing nose. The F1ZZ HO gear reduction starter WILL FIT 90% of the SBF's regardless of flywheel. The 10% variance is dependant on the flywheel ring gear positioning and flywheel thickness. SOme were forward and some were rearward on the flywheel in stick only applications. That's why there are two different noses for the early cars with sticks. ALL the 5.0 HO's use the same starter regardless of trans. They all use the same two bolt pattern and as I said, changes were made to the nose and drive to condense the part numbers. I'm not going to debate it nor am I going to waste my time looking up internet sources. I know what I know from what I have installed. If they don't fit then I sure have a lot of cars out there that are starting by devine intervention.
Again, there are litterally dozens of stick flywheels out there for SBF's or ones that have been adapted by the aftermarket to work on SBF's. You do need to check the clearance, but it has been my experiance that 90% will accept the later model 5.0 HO gear reduction F1ZZ unit.
So.....if you want a cheap gear reduction starter one from a 91 top 95 5.0 HO Mustang is a great candidate.

Oh yeah TOdd, how did your starter fit???

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator/ non 65-66 Mustang owner sensitivity co-ordinator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA/MCA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."

[This message has been edited by Moneymaker (edited 09-07-2002).]

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 2831
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 09-07-2002 12:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I believe it's starter for the 164 tooth flywheel that has the 'different' 2" nose.

In all fairness, the starter I tried on my car was probably older than a 91. It was probably a 88-89 5.0 starter.... and it didn't work. (I didn't know they changed them after that) Are -ALL- 91+ small block starters the same? I probably won't be able to find one out of a 5.0 mustang around here at the junkyard, but maybe out of something else...

Thanks!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

[This message has been edited by n2oMike (edited 09-07-2002).]

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clevelandstyle
Gearhead

Posts: 1309
From: central Indiana
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 09-07-2002 12:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for clevelandstyle     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
One of the things FoMoCo did was to engineer a new starter that would work on several engine combinations and flywheel arrangments.

Gee! There is a new concept for Ford.

------------------
Ben
Grabber Green '70 Mach I 351C 4V
Robbin Egg Blue '79 Fairmont 351C 4V

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 2494
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 09-09-2002 09:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by n2oMike:
...Are [b]-ALL- 91+ small block starters the same? I probably won't be able to find one out of a 5.0 mustang around here at the junkyard, but maybe out of something else...[/B]

Mike: That's kinda what I found out here...I located ONE junkyard 5.0L HO engine, but the yard didn't want to part it out; they wanted to sell the engine with the starter...

Thanks a bunch on the web site information, Mike! All good stuff!

I'm going to guess that it HAS to be a 5.0L H.O. engine, otherwise Alex wouldn't of specified it as such.

I think I'm going to make a few calls to the bigger junkyards located in the bigger cities south (80 miles away) of me; if I can locate a 5.0L HO starter there, it might still be worthwhile for me to make the drive...If not, the PA-Performance unit @ $135 may get the nod.

The CVR and the FRPP units are a little more & about equal in cost at around $160, I looked at CSI and Tilton units, but they're in the $250-329 range, too rich for me!

Thanks everyone for your help!

Ryan

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 27499
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 09-09-2002 11:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
By the way, I have not had any luck with the aftermarket "race starters". They don't all fit the same, most work well, but don't seem to last more than a season or so. CSI has the best of the bunch that we have had any experiance with. I like, use, and recomend the FRPP unit.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator/ non 65-66 Mustang owner sensitivity co-ordinator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA/MCA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 2494
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 09-09-2002 11:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Alex,
As always, experience is the BEST teacher!
Thanks for the info & tip, Bud!!!!

Ryan

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Dave_C
Gearhead

Posts: 1069
From: Gadsden, Al
Registered: Aug 99

posted 09-09-2002 07:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dave_C   Click Here to Email Dave_C     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ryan Wilke:
Mike: That's kinda what I found out here...I located ONE junkyard 5.0L HO engine, but the yard didn't want to part it out; they wanted to sell the engine with the starter...

Thanks a bunch on the web site information, Mike! All good stuff!

I'm going to guess that it HAS to be a 5.0L H.O. engine, otherwise Alex wouldn't of specified it as such.

Ryan


Just as an FYI, Another application to find that same starter. 92 F-150 (prob 92-96 is the same) with the 5.0 or 351W. The same part # fits auto and manual trans. The HO mustangs carry the same part # starter.

I had one of these trucks and once pulled the starter off and put it on my race car in the pits to go another couple of rounds.

Any parts store will have one of these.

Later,
David Cole

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 27499
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 09-09-2002 07:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Most parts stores will NOT accept an alternate core for these particular units by the way as they are still rather scarce on the rebuilt scene. I have tried to substitute a regualr early fat body starter as a core and they bounced it. the rebuilders are on to us as they have a note in the box stating that the core must be the same.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator/ non 65-66 Mustang owner sensitivity co-ordinator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA/MCA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 2494
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 09-10-2002 08:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dave_C:
Just as an FYI, Another application to find that same starter. 92 F-150 (prob 92-96 is the same) with the 5.0 or 351W. The same part # fits auto and manual trans. The HO mustangs carry the same part # starter. Later, David Cole

Thanks, Dave_C!!
I'd expect I could get a junkyard starter off a 92-96 5.0/351W truck easier than off of a 5.0 HO Mustang....

Alex,
I also tried that before & was shot down! I have been successful at using different cores for brake shoes though.

Thanks again everyone!

Ryan

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V8 Thumper
Gearhead

Posts: 4681
From: Phoenix, Arizona
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 09-10-2002 08:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper   Click Here to Email V8 Thumper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ryan Wilke:
I have been successful at using different cores for brake shoes though.

Master cylinders too

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cpmaverick
Gearhead

Posts: 1666
From: Santa Clarita, CA
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 09-10-2002 11:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cpmaverick   Click Here to Email cpmaverick     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Honestly, the parts store isn't likely to remember what kind of starter you had or what it looked like or weighed. I used a 1995 Mustang starter (reman) on my Maverick. I returned my old style starter in the box. I knew the parts guys, and I told them it was a different style. I know they aren't supposed to take it, but they didn't care. They will likely get thier core out of it too, the only loser is the reman comapny.

------------------
-Charlie Ping
1970 Maverick Grabber
[email protected] with AC and overdrive.
http://www.maverickgrabber.com

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