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  Vacuum Pump

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Author Topic:   Vacuum Pump
jsracingbbf
unregistered
posted 08-11-2002 11:33 PM              Reply w/Quote
Does anyone have experience running these? Are they worth the extra $$$. Et gains? Who makes a good one? Is the moroso one the only brand out there? I am thinking about putting one on my car.

------------------
Jerry Smith
69 Mustang Pro ET Drag
"Even a blind hog can find an acorn every now and then "

stoker
Gearhead

Posts: 159
From: folsom,cal,
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 08-12-2002 12:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for stoker        Reply w/Quote
i have heard they are worth some horsepower,not sure how much though.i was thinking about trying one to eliminate blow by fumes i always get inside car on hard pass (especially when nos is pushed)also heard solves oil leak problems.

cpmaverick
Gearhead

Posts: 1669
From: Manhattan Beach, CA
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 08-12-2002 12:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cpmaverick        Reply w/Quote
Car Craft did a test awhile back with a 600 HP BB Chevy. They gained ~45 HP with the vacuum pump.

The catch/discalimer? They said at the end the engine was built with special low firction rings made for use with a vacuum pump. . So I'd like to see a test with a 'normal' engine.

------------------
-Charlie Ping
1970 Maverick Grabber
[email protected] with AC and overdrive.
http://www.maverickgrabber.com

jsracingbbf
unregistered
posted 08-12-2002 11:32 PM              Reply w/Quote
I run those gapless rings, I think it helps with running the alky. I would like to hear some opinions on these vacuum pumps. I hear alot of the nitrous guys talk about them with much splendor. I have no doubt it helps and works but I wonder just how much?

------------------
Jerry Smith
69 Mustang Pro ET Drag
"Even a blind hog can find an acorn every now and then "

steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 9835
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 08-12-2002 11:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66        Reply w/Quote
One negative about them is that crankcase pressure actually helps prime the oil pump and push oil into the pump. This tidbit was/is from David Reher of ReherMorrison.

For most of us a pcv and a breather on the other valve cover works fine.

SteveW

jsracingbbf
unregistered
posted 08-12-2002 11:49 PM              Reply w/Quote
True enuff Steve I agree, but I can't run a PCV on my hat and header evacs are out also. I just plumb everything into a catch can. Just looking for ideas man. I was hoping to get alot of pros and cons on this thing from the group. I can't decide one way or the other. Part of me says why spend the money if it isn't necessary?
Jerry

steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 9835
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 08-13-2002 12:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66        Reply w/Quote
Jerry,

You are not "most of us"

A mechanical crank case evac pump would be a good thing for your set up. But, I'm no expert at all on engines like yours. Good luck with whatever you decide to run. I did hear that the reason that Angele S. runs so quick in pro stock bike is that her light weight allows them to run a crankcase evac pump and stay under the weight limit, but that could be b.s. too.

SteveW

Larry Jennings
Gearhead

Posts: 540
From: Redwood City, Ca. USA
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 08-13-2002 01:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Larry Jennings        Reply w/Quote
The pump works but I can't give you numbers. The last time we were on the dyno we wanted to do a back to back with the pump but the episode turned sour and we didn't get any usable info at all. It is true if you pull too much vacuum (generally considered 20 inchs max) you can stand off the oil pump, and if the valley has very little drain holes (like an FE) for oil to try to get down while pressure is being drawn up there can be problems but 460s have plenty big holes in the valley so you'd be OK there, a relief valve would be a consideration if your rings are sealed real good. You have to work out how many Rs to turn the pump too, (one time I turned a pump so fast it melted the vanes ) 6000 is about right. It is thought by creating a vacuum below the piston and top ring the cylinder pressure can build quicker and start the rings press against the cylinder wall sooner thus using more of the stroke. A byproduct of the negative pan pressure is how well the seals and gaskets hold up .

------------------
Advertising is the science of arresting the human intelligence long enough to get money from it. Stephen Leacock

RickBook
Gearhead

Posts: 144
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 08-13-2002 01:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for RickBook        Reply w/Quote
I grenaded THREE pulley-type crankcase evac pumps on my SB. They were all different sizes and had different number of veins. The problem was that too much oil got in the pump - burning the veins.

The location of the pump doesn't help any either (being way below the heads).

I bought an electric pump to put on my Mav (when I get it running).

It has a few desirable features:

1) It's electric. Any parasitic loss due to pulley/bearings/other friction is eliminated.

2) It can be mounted above the heads (thus decreasing the likelyhood that oil will overcome gravity and travel up the line).

3) The cost is $97.62 versus the ~$300 for the FMS/Ford pulleys (which btw, they will not warrant, in my case).

4) The amount of vaccum can be adjusted using a rheostat switch (if necessary). Pulley types increase and decrease the amount of vaccum with rpm's.

The part number is 12568241 and can be found at (are you sitting down?) www.gmpartsdirect.com.

It's a "Air Injector Reactor" pump. It's used on the LT's and LS's (I believe) as standard equip. The gossip is that Bow-Tie uses it to gain h.p. but touts it to Nader/Democrats/Tree-huggers/EPA, etc., that it is a anti-smog device.

Anyone else (on this board) ever use this? Will I be the first? (hope not :EEK

Rick

------------------
Building 1970 Grabber, 347 EFI, AOD, 9", 6pt for strip.

jsracingbbf
unregistered
posted 08-13-2002 08:36 PM              Reply w/Quote
Rick ,
Do you know where we can see one of these? Are the threads NPT? How big is it? Does it have specs as to how much vacuum it will pull? I checked on that site you posted and it really didn't have a discription.
Jerry

RickBook
Gearhead

Posts: 144
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 08-13-2002 10:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for RickBook        Reply w/Quote
Jerry,

You can probably 'see' one at your friendly GM Parts House.

The overall size of the main body is about 4" in diameter in front of the mounting flange ('front' side) and 2-3/4" diameter behind the mounting flange. I intend to cut a (2-7/8") hole in my fender well to mount the flange to.

The b.c. of the 5/16" thick flange is hard to figure out. It has three (3) 9/16" 'lugs', unequally spaced around the circumference, about 2-5/8" from the 'front' side of the flange. The smaller diameter (2-3/4" behind the flange) is about 3-3/4" long. The overall length is approximately 6" long.

The inlets/outlets are 1" and 3/4" diameter with upsets to clamp standard hoses to (no AN fittings required - or needed - like others).

I have no idea how much vaccum it pulls. If it pulls a constant 5" HSG, I hear that will be fine (my other pumps pulled up to 15" HSG - at high rpm's). I was told, by people far more experienced than me, that 5" is all that is required - as long as there is 'some' vaccum.

I'll try to attach a few pics and/or links to pics. I have a cheesey camera that takes HORRIBLE pics with the flash. I can't "A Ford" ( ) a new one until I get the Maverick going.

[This message has been edited by RickBook (edited 08-13-2002).]

jsracingbbf
unregistered
posted 08-13-2002 11:26 PM              Reply w/Quote
Thanks Rick, I might play wait and see. I have time, but I'm glad we got to look at some alternatives! THANKS!
Jerry

RickBook
Gearhead

Posts: 144
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 08-13-2002 11:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for RickBook        Reply w/Quote
Sorry, I'm not sure if the photos are going to display (yet) or not. I'll check back agian tomorrow.

jkilroy
Gearhead

Posts: 1811
From: Vicksburg, MS
Registered: Dec 99

posted 08-14-2002 09:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jkilroy        Reply w/Quote
Thats a lot of pump for less than $100 bucks. I wonder if that thing would work as a power brake booster pump?

------------------
Jay Kilroy
68' Fastback GT 390
"No such thing as a cam thats too big"

[email protected]
Gearhead

Posts: 998
From: Lakewood, CO, USA
Registered: Jun 2001

posted 08-14-2002 11:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for JCQuinn@work        Reply w/Quote
I was just reading an article on Pro Stock engines by Mark Pawuk on the NHRA website. In the article I saw this statement and thought of this thread.

"Ring seal is crucial," said Pawuk. "The more vacuum you can build in the crankcase the better ring seal you get and the more power you're going to make."

Interesting.

Fordwiser
Gearhead

Posts: 535
From: Metamora, Illinois
Registered: Dec 2000

posted 08-14-2002 06:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fordwiser        Reply w/Quote
How do you go about hooking one of these up electric or belt driven, can you use the breathers made for the header evacuation systems, or do you plumb into the valley if you have a airgap type manifold? Also where do you vent the pump to, guess I should be checking out other cars at the track more! LOL! That electric pump looks like a slick set up! Keep us posted!
Roger

RickBook
Gearhead

Posts: 144
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 08-14-2002 08:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for RickBook        Reply w/Quote
The pump is operated with one positive 12V wire and one ground (I just didn't show the connection in the pic).

My intent is to mount the pump as HIGH and FORWARD as I can - (NOT accessing the valley directly). Seems it'd be a greater likelyhood of picking up oil.

The reason for putting it forward mounted is that under acceleration, the line is less apt to pick up oil.

I intend to come right out of the top of one of the valve covers with a 1" re-inforced hose going to the pump. I'll fab a nipple there probably or rig one of these -

From the pump, I'll run the 3/4" line to a catch can (similiar to Jegs P/N 720-5129) to keep from oiling down the track and to keep an eye on how much oil it is pulling. The rehostat switch (potentiometer) can be adjusted accordingly if needed.

The 3/4" line will be run into the SIDE of the can (using a ferrel-type fitting). I'll use a valve cover breather (like the one shown on the left in the picture above) and locate it on top of the can.


Why am I reminded of the this quote: "The best laid plans of mice and men" ? (or something like that)

Anyway, that's what I 'intend' to do, f.w.i.w.

TomP
Gearhead

Posts: 6376
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99

posted 08-14-2002 11:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for TomP        Reply w/Quote
DON'T try an internet search for "vacuum pump" LOL

Larry Jennings
Gearhead

Posts: 540
From: Redwood City, Ca. USA
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 08-15-2002 01:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Larry Jennings        Reply w/Quote
Tom! Judging from some of the stuff you send me (and you know how much I hate looking at nekid wimin) I think you mighta knowed about them pumps before this . If the pump is mounted right and turned the correct RPM it will not pull oil. It should not pull from a valve cover unless there's room for huge air to get from the crankcase through the valley (and I have mine pulling from the front of the valley) up through the head and out the valve cover, and it's doing this while oil's trying to drain back through all those same holes. On the FE I just did I ran a -16 hose from the fuel pump mounting hole into the rear of the intake so even thought the hose pulls oil out of the pump hole helped in no small part by the timing set it drains right back into the valley and has an immediate path into the pan. I did all this because of the limited air escape (oil drainback holes) available in the FE and it's 3 or 4 times better than a small block with those little tiny oil drainback holes they have so I would suggest some similar help on one of those to prevent standing off the oil drainback and filling the valley and heads. These belt driven pumps are so efficient I run a 4 inch pulley on the crank and a 6 inch pulley on the pump and it pulls good vacuum in sync with the engines speed. I also use a McClintoc relief valve which can be adjusted by shims to the desired suck. I've had the pump mounted high and low without any oil being drawn in but I think it's from oil path management . I vent the pump into a Jaz breather tank of about a quart size that has a K&N filter on top so the pressure can escape but it retains any errant oil drips and I drain about 1/4 cup of mostly water out of it in 3 or 4 passes.

------------------
Advertising is the science of arresting the human intelligence long enough to get money from it. Stephen Leacock

jsracingbbf
unregistered
posted 03-30-2003 12:17 AM              Reply w/Quote
Installed one of the GM electric models that Rick posted pics of on a buddy of mine's Cougar. Looks like it is going to work out. I still need to measure just how much vacuum it pulls though. We did not see an improvement with ET but it was a great improvement for his oil control

------------------
Jerry
69 Mustang Pro ET Drag
70 Mustang retired former footbrake car
Jerry: (speaking to Jeff) " you gonna take your doors off first round time trials?"
Jeff: (chevy guy, friend) No stupid why would I wanna do that?
Jerry: thought you might want to save them since I'm gonna blow them off anyway ( shrug walk off)

KULTULZ
Gearhead

Posts: 959
From: Rockville, MD
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 03-30-2003 04:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ        Reply w/Quote
quote:
I still need to measure just how much vacuum it pulls though.

I for one am very interested in what amount of vacuum it will pull. When you have a chance, please plumb in a vacuum gauge.

------------------
I am looking for information concerning factory performance/speed parts used on the MEL (Mercury-Edsel-Lincoln) Engine Series (383-410-430-462) from 1958 thru 1968.

bleaublud
Journeyman

Posts: 1
From:
Registered: Mar 2003

posted 03-30-2003 06:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bleaublud        Reply w/Quote
hello to all,,just found this website and hope to learn a lot. Yes, applying vacum to the crankcase does make horse power. we used a "ford re-circulateing pump from a V-6 taurus, made our own "genie" valve and run 12.5"Hg. Tried running more and had the oil problem. Ran less and still had some blow-by out the valve covers. The pump is mounted just above alt.(460 motor), and is pullied off the waterpump. Useing stock pully that came with pump and 5" pulley on the pump. tried a 6" pulley but that spun the vac-pump too fast and burned it up. Have seen some guys use a smog pump off the chevy citations as well with good results. "nuttin better than cheap junkyard parts!" Easier to replace.

kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 7251
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 03-30-2003 06:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus        Reply w/Quote
My buddy back in Iowa with a 555 bbc installed a Moroso vacuum pump on it this year. On the dyno, by changing the "pull" from 10" of vacuum to 14", the motor picked up 30 hp. He said the only drawback was, the first pull they turned up the vacuum, it sucked the end seals of the intake gaskets in.

Another buddy made his own out of something of a newer style corvette. His pulls 15" of vacuum. It's enough it literally pulls the tops of the valvecovers down while it's running.

Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 3237
From: Stanton, Michigan, zip 48888
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 03-30-2003 07:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke        Reply w/Quote
WELCOME TO M&M, BLEAUBLUD!

Tell us more about your 460-powered racer!

Ryan

------------------
The '3-Pedal Attitude' Kid
In a '69 FB w/ 4-spd'd 306",
but the 460+ is on the stand!

kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 7251
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 03-30-2003 07:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus        Reply w/Quote
Oh yeah

Welcome to M&M!

------------------
Rob Hetzler
member #773
'69 mustang, 351C, best 9.97 @ 133 mph 1/4, 6.18 @ 109.9 1/8
'70 mustang, soon to be 351W powered
'93 F150 Lightning 15.33 @ 87 mph, completely stock with 170k miles
'60 Falcon wagon project car
'99 Pro Et track champion
'00 Mod ET R-up (with new car)

My Photo Page

V8 Thumper
Gearhead

Posts: 4777
From: Phoenix, Arizona
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 03-30-2003 07:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper        Reply w/Quote
...and a 3rd Welcome to M&M

Great thread guys! I can't add anything to it, so I'll just sit back and learn

------------------
1965 GT coupe, 333ci aluminum headed/solid cammed stroker, four speed, 3.70:1 9"

All Blue Oval, no blue bottle
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/V8Thumper.html

jsracingbbf
unregistered
posted 03-31-2003 01:18 AM              Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KULTULZ:
I for one am very interested in what amount of vacuum it will pull. When you have a chance, please plumb in a vacuum gauge.



Give me a couple of days, I'll try to post it in a day or two.
JS

KULTULZ
Gearhead

Posts: 959
From: Rockville, MD
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 03-31-2003 04:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KULTULZ:


I for one am very interested in what amount of vacuum it will pull. When you have a chance, please plumb in a vacuum gauge.


quote:
Originally posted by jsracingbbf:


Give me a couple of days, I'll try to post it in a day or two.


I really appreciate that...

Stang85
Journeyman

Posts: 43
From: Virginia Beach, Va. USA
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 03-31-2003 12:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Stang85        Reply w/Quote
We use to run the GM "vacuum" pump om our 10 second mustang. It did eliminate a slight oil blowby problem but I was surprised it only pulled 3" maximum.

I recently saw the New Products section in the National Dragster and Edelbrock is coming out with an electronic vacuum pump that will pull up to 15". Looked very similar to an electric fuel pump and the same size. Should be the trick way to go by eliminating the pulley and belt hassles. Free horsepower if there is such a thing. No price listed and it isn't in their 2002 catalogue or online. We will definitly go this way on our new setup.

KULTULZ
Gearhead

Posts: 959
From: Rockville, MD
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 03-31-2003 09:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ        Reply w/Quote
-Master Power Brakes Electric Vacuum Pump-

jsracingbbf
unregistered
posted 03-31-2003 11:25 PM              Reply w/Quote
Well I was dissapointed, only 4" of vaccum. I'm glad he bought it instead of me. HEy he is happy with it. It did help his problem. What about this other one? where can you get them and how much? I clicked the link and it shows info but no price or order info.

JS

jsracingbbf
unregistered
posted 03-31-2003 11:27 PM              Reply w/Quote
Ok I see the price in small print. I'd make it small too for that kind of price!

JS

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