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Author Topic:   New Comp Cams 'Beehive' Valvesprings...
n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 2419
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 07-23-2002 12:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
These were reviewed by David Vizard in the August Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords issue I purchased today. (which is supposed to be displayed until 7/29)

They are big at the bottom and really small on top. They are single springs made of oval shaped wire, and use a really small retainer.

The positive thing about them is they have no real 'resonant frequency'. They don't 'twang' and any certain rpm. The oval wire gives more room before coil bind and distributes the load better than a round wire. The smaller diameter top portion and tiny retainer reduce the actual spring mass that gets compressed DRAMATICALLY. (Vizard refers to them as 'poor man's titanium valves') They say you can run significantly less spring pressure, while having greater control of the valve.

The lighter spring pressure made possible by these springs is supposed to be great for larger hydraulic cams (expecially rollers) that would otherwise need a lot of open spring pressure (enough to collapse the lifter) for high speed control.

The article referred to three different springs. Small, medium, and large. One was for street hydraulic cams, the other for larger street/strip hydraulic roller/flat mechanical cams (135lb seat, 280 open... which replaces a 145lb seat, 345lb open conventional spring), and the biggest was for moderate to semi heavy duty rollers with 0.650"-0.700" lift. It delivers 450lbs over the nose, and replaces springs with 580-600lbs.

They sound like a good way to run a nice stout solid cam on the street without worrying about excessive spring pressures...


Anyone have more information on these?

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

[This message has been edited by n2oMike (edited 07-23-2002).]

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 07-23-2002 12:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Isky made some springs that sound a lot like that about 25 years ago. I'll have to look in my 2002 Isky cataloge and see if they still offer them.

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Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator/ non 65-66 Mustang owner sensitivity co-ordinator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
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Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

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Mpcoluv
Gearhead

Posts: 1278
From: Charlotte NC usa
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 07-23-2002 06:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mpcoluv   Click Here to Email Mpcoluv     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I've held those light weight Beehive springs in my hand. Very small and light. If they work, they should be a pretty good step forward, especially if you can run less presssure and get the same control of the valvetrain. Maybe I'll replace the heavy (for a hydraulic cam)Isky 8005A springs I have with those.....

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 43151
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 01-04-2005 06:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Anyone try these yet?

------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 Open
'70 Mustang Convertible 250 I6/3 speed/2.79 Open
'72 Mustang Sprint Hardtop 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Loc
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-04-2005 06:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes, 25 years ago.
They work great on street cars with stock hardware when you want to do a mild cam upgrade.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28

The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 43151
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 01-04-2005 07:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Not worth it to lose the weight, huh? Even at your rpm level?

------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 Open
'70 Mustang Convertible 250 I6/3 speed/2.79 Open
'72 Mustang Sprint Hardtop 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Loc
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip

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Rory McNeil
Gearhead

Posts: 1542
From: Surrey, B.C. Canada
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 01-04-2005 07:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rory McNeil   Click Here to Email Rory McNeil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Like Alex said, these have been around a long time, the only difference was that these "Beehive" springs were meant to be installed small end down. This was so you could put a stronger valve spring on a SB Chev, & not need to cut the spring seats larger to accomadate a large diameter spring. Opening up the typical cast iron SB Chev seat to accept a large spring quite often resulted in cutting into the water passage, resulting in a junk piece of cast iron.

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78 Fairmont 428 4 speed [email protected]
80 Fairmont 302 5 speed [email protected]
85 Mustang NHRA M/Stock 302 5speed. [email protected]
59 Meteor (Canadian Ford) 2 dr sedan 332, auto
74 F350 ramp truck 390 4spd

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 43151
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 01-04-2005 07:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yeah, Isky had those.

We're talking about the new style ovoid wound springs with small retainers.

------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 Open
'70 Mustang Convertible 250 I6/3 speed/2.79 Open
'72 Mustang Sprint Hardtop 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Loc
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-04-2005 07:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am supposed to get some of those oval springs in titanium to test.
We'll see if they come through.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28

The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 2419
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 01-04-2005 08:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The NEW beehive springs are big on the bottom and small on the top.

This drastically reduces retainer weight, plus...

They are made in a weird oval shaped wire that helps keep them from 'twanging' at certain frequencies. plus...

They are designed to 'stack' from the bottom up as the valve opens. This makes the spring progressively stiffer and reduces the effective mass of the spring that needs 'controlled' as the valve opens. (as the valve approaches full lift, only the top of the spring is 'unstacked', so there if FAR less spring mass to control)

Spintron and dyno tests show that engines are spinning way more rpm's with far less spring pressure using these springs.

I've never used them myself, but David Vizard has written several articles that includes them, and seems completely sold. He constantly raves about them. This style of spring is also currently used in the GM LS1 engine.

Good Luck!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

[This message has been edited by n2oMike (edited 01-04-2005).]

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 6098
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 01-04-2005 09:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by n2oMike:
This style of spring is also currently used in the GM LS1 engine.

Good Luck!



But the stock GM LS1 spring is only good to about 6200. When the guys want to spin it higher (or the springs get a bunch of hard miles on them), the first thing they have to change is the springs/retainers. The LS6 spring is good to around 6400-6500 with a mild cam. If the cam is very much bigger than stock, they aren't sufficient either.

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 2419
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 01-04-2005 09:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kid vishus:

But the stock GM LS1 spring is only good to about 6200. When the guys want to spin it higher (or the springs get a bunch of hard miles on them), the first thing they have to change is the springs/retainers.

This style of spring... not the exact part number. Comp offers these springs in a variety of 'flavors'.

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

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chip67
Gearhead

Posts: 245
From: louisville, ky, jefferson
Registered: Oct 2004

posted 01-04-2005 11:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chip67   Click Here to Email chip67     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
you know i remember posting on these very springs over a year ago and everybody told me they were junk. thats why i bought the hard @ss crane springs to hold my hyd. roller in check. i believed you when you said they were junk even though the magazine articles raved about them. the reason why is because the same mags said a hyd. roller couldnt rev past 6200, which is absolute b.s., so knowing they lied about one thing made me tend to not believe the "worlds greatest spring" articles. hate buying crap twice, in this case 3 times. if the springs are proven, i will have them along with some lightweight valves, and titanium locks and retainers. not because the car would be any quicker, just for the longevity.

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coupe, 306, 4 speed, 4.11's. pump gas, n/a street car. best so far is 7.48 (1/8 mile) at 93mph with 1.64 60ft. 11.80 at 113 on greased 1/4 track.

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 2419
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 01-04-2005 11:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Read the date of when the first post on this thread was made...

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-04-2005 11:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OK, here's what I do know.

I know a lot of LS-1 racers. Probably more than all of you.
Some pretty famous ones at that.
None of the fast ones are using these springs as of yet. Many have tried them, but the results were not satisfactory.
I also know of several Pro Stock teams who have tried a titanium variation of this style spring and they also had poor results.
These were all the initial early designs from late 2003 and early 2004.
The harmonics are very good which is an issue with light valves, but lack of longevity seems the be their down fall.
I am supposed to get a set for dyno testing purposes and I'll then be able to give my own first hand observations.


...........................................


Also, as far as stock roller hydraulic lifters go, camshaft profiles have come a long way in the last few years. Also rules in the NMRA, FWC, and FFW sanctions change almost daily. What valve train parts were not allowed a few years ago are now legal. All of these variables come into play so I really don't want to hear any more crap about it!

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28

The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 2419
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 01-05-2005 12:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
http://www.compcams.com/Technical/CurrentCatalog/HTML/329-338.asp

Here are some commonly available units from Comp. The 'street' springs are shown on down the from the 'new' offerings.

Again, I haven't tried them, but have been interested in watching them to see how they work.

Good Luck!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

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393Bird
Gearhead

Posts: 110
From: Clarksville Tn.
Registered: Feb 2004

posted 01-05-2005 02:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 393Bird   Click Here to Email 393Bird     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have been watching these for some time also. I will be going up a step or 2 in cams next Winter, and would like to use these if they prove to be worth while.

------------------
1993 Tbird
393 stroker, 3500 RPM converter
http://members.tccoa.com/393bird/

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Rustang
Gearhead

Posts: 733
From: Clarion PA
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 01-05-2005 04:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rustang   Click Here to Email Rustang     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by n2oMike:
These were reviewed by David Vizard

There's your sign

------------------
'68 mustang 351 clevor- [email protected]
'67 Stang, 351W [email protected]
'69 351C [email protected]
'78 Pickup [email protected]
'79 Pickup 460 ET=??

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Scott (69Mach)
Gearhead

Posts: 734
From: Walnut Creek, CA USA
Registered: Jun 99

posted 01-05-2005 05:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott (69Mach)   Click Here to Email Scott (69Mach)     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I asked my local shop here. They've used them in the past and had problems. They won't use them now.

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Bloose
Gearhead

Posts: 621
From: Milwaukee, WI
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 01-05-2005 06:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bloose   Click Here to Email Bloose     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
These springs seemed interesting to me too. But here is an interesting aspect. HD went to this type of spring on their stock Twin Cam motor a couple of years ago. For all of the reasons listed. Smaller retainers meant less valve float plus no need for damper or dual springs. They also started using this type of spring in the Buell first in the XB engine because they rev it higher than the sporty motor.

That being the case here is the strange part, they still use the standard dual spring on their Screaming Eagle 1550 motors. This is their HP motor (for a HD) put in the big dollar custom bikes. They also have hotter cams than the standard Twin Cam.

This tells me a couple of things. With the exception of the Buell motor (I have not really confirmed the beehive style in the Buell, just read that in a magazine) the behive springs work well in stock applications. They likely also simplify production assembly which may be why your seeing them more and more in the OEM's. But for bigger cams the standard dual spring set up must be more durable and worth the extra weight and cost.

HTH,
B-loose

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f100cleveland
Gearhead

Posts: 295
From: St. James, MN
Registered: Sep 2004

posted 01-06-2005 01:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for f100cleveland   Click Here to Email f100cleveland     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If I'm not mistaken, the late 80's-early 90's Chrysler caravans ran a beehive shaped spring in their 3.0 and maybe 3.8. I'm sure if Chrysler corp ran the springs in the van, they were in a lot of their products. I remember when I first heard about the "new" design of the beehive spring, but at work I took the valve cover off of a Caravan and there it was, a beehive spring. They sound like they would work good, but I'm with the others, if you are putting in a big cam, go with the dual springs w/dampner. ITS PROVEN

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1982 Ford F100 2wd Shortbox. Powered by a 357 Cleveland w/ closed chamber 4v's and a Funnelweb. Full Roller c-6 trans with Gear Vendors Overdrive and 4.86 geared Detroit Locker equipped 9" rear.

1982 F100 351c 4v

1977 F150 460 Burnout Truck

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Mpcoluv
Gearhead

Posts: 1278
From: Charlotte NC usa
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 01-06-2005 07:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mpcoluv   Click Here to Email Mpcoluv     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Several years ago, these Beehive springs had a short life cycle...Like less than the length of the Daytona 500
Valve spring technology has made several leaps forward in the last few years.
A custom cam grinder I know had a set of beehives that were better than the Comp versions. It seems that someone is always introducing new spring materials and designs every week.
I have actually seen a 302 with a flat tappet hyd cam and beehive springs rev to 7200 on a dyno....Some of that could be an easy opening/closing cam profile also.
So don't be afraid to try something new, just don't expect miracles.
BTW the beehives are designed to coil bind as they compress. Many LS-1 knock sensors sense this and timing is taken out by the computer. Crane has a better spring for LS-1s.

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indyphil
Gearhead

Posts: 2398
From: Senoia, G.A. USA
Registered: Jul 2002

posted 01-06-2005 09:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for indyphil   Click Here to Email indyphil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ive worked on spring design some here at work. There are many variables. Harmonics seem to be less of a problem to me than LIFE. the metals used, the preload, the spring stiffness and the valve lift are the important variables. Its no surprise to me that a well engineered dual spring setup will out-live the beehive spring - fatigue is the enemy with stout cams and stiff springs.

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'68 coupe, '66 289 C code
engine, edel 600cfm carb, performer intake, dual exhaust http://www.geocities.com/ottouk_77/68mustang.htm

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chip67
Gearhead

Posts: 245
From: louisville, ky, jefferson
Registered: Oct 2004

posted 01-08-2005 12:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for chip67   Click Here to Email chip67     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
if i recall correctly, my current setup on a hyd. roller has 200lbs on the seat and 400lbs open. i broke a bar type spring tool in half (matco brand) with a much lighter set of springs (three cams ago), always us the t handle spring compressor now (an still squint), but always looking at ways to ease the stress in the valvetrain. titanium retainers/locks next year and some adjustable pushrod guides. something about the rockers not running on the center of the roller tips just makes my stomach tight.

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coupe, 306, 4 speed, 4.11's. pump gas, n/a street car. best so far is 7.48 (1/8 mile) at 93mph with 1.64 60ft. 11.80 at 113 on greased 1/4 track.

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