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Author Topic:   Considering a pink shirt!?!?!?!?
65_289
Gearhead

Posts: 761
From:
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 07-19-2002 03:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 65_289   Click Here to Email 65_289     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yeah, I am. I want to get into bracket racing, and I suck *** at shifting. Plus, my clutch is fried.

Anwyay, I talked to JPT, (he said mean things about Alex J/K) and they said they wouldn't recommend a brake for me. They said brakes cause lots of wear and you have to freshen the tranny often. They also said I'd pick up some time with a C4 over my 5 speed. My questions are:

1. What is a "rollerized" C4?

2. If I get an auto, should I go with a custom converter?

Let me hear you experinces with auto's vs. 5-speeds!

------------------
1965 Coupe, Tremec 3550, Steeda Tri-Ax, Cable Clutch conversion, 9" N case, 4.11's, Spool, 31 spline Moser axles, Daytona pinion support, Biondo Line Lock, Ford XB3 longblock, x303 heads, B-Cam, 9:1 comp., Tri-y headers, cut-outs, Ford Racing high-torque mini-starter, Pertronix Ignitor & Flamethrower coil, 650 double pumper, Edelbrock RPM intake, K&N air, Holley electric fuel pump & AFPR, dual 2-chamber Flowmasters, Summit 3-way fronts, Rancho 5-way rears, 5-leaf springs, Slide-a-Links, Chrome Export Brace, Griffen Radiator, Comp. Eng. subs.

[email protected] w/ a 1.837 60'

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[email protected]
Gearhead

Posts: 422
From: Lakewood, CO, USA
Registered: Jun 2001

posted 07-19-2002 03:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JCQuinn@work   Click Here to Email JCQuinn@work     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
65_289

1. a rollerized transmission is one that has had the bushings replaced with roller bearings for less friction.

2. A race transmission without a race converter is a waste of money.

3. I have found automatics (even with a brake) to be very reliable and very consistent.

four/Five speeds for fun. Automatics for business.
I have raced four speeds in stock eliminator. Lots of fun driving and shifting but when you start making a lot of horsepower, an automatic is a much cheaper way to have a reliable transmission.

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 4538
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 07-19-2002 04:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 65_289:

2. If I get an auto, should I go with a custom converter?

Yes, definatley. A custom convertor is matched to your vehicles specs. An "off the shelf" convertor is designed to just get close to what you need. Basically, they are generic and not near as quick as a good custom made convertor.

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 1501
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 07-19-2002 05:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
NO.....DON'T DO IT, 65_289,,,!
DON'T GO TO TO THE 'PINK SIDE'... !

IT'S LIKE GOING TO THE 'DARK SIDE'..! .....OH, NOOOOOOOO!!!

QUICK! - TomP and all other 'Stick Yankers'; Say something good to save this poor lad from certain regret!!!!!

Don't give up on your Tremec!!!!!!
"Beat 'em with your Stick!"

Ryan

[This message has been edited by Ryan Wilke (edited 07-19-2002).]

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steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 6522
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 07-19-2002 08:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wellll,

Melissa's best in the '66 back when it was a 351w with 4 spd od (3 gears used in the 1/4) was a 12.48 @110, with the t-5 (4 gears used) was a [email protected] BUT with a rollerized c-4 and a custom converter (actually the converter was built for the upcoming 408w specs) It ran 12.02 with a bog off the line. We never did get the bog out or it would've been high 11's with the exact engine and h.p. Oh and the mph went up to 112

So anyway DO IT and don't look back, especially if you wanna go a few rounds bracket racing. Not to take anything away from our master stick pullers! Pink t-shirts just work better for most "mortals".

SteveW

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capri man
Gearhead

Posts: 3385
From: doerun, ga.
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 07-19-2002 09:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for capri man   Click Here to Email capri man     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
the sticks are more fun and i cant argue the speeds at all. but there is no way that a mortal can shift a stick more consistantly than an automatic will shift. an auto is a must for bracket racing. period

------------------
mike r
racing is real
everything else is just a game.
81 capri-7.56 @88mph 1/8
1.56 60 ft.
http://prestage.com/site/site_display.asp?SiteID=141

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65_302
Gearhead

Posts: 239
From: Bixby, OK
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 07-19-2002 09:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 65_302   Click Here to Email 65_302     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ryan Wilke:
NO.....DON'T DO IT, 65_289,,,!
DON'T GO TO TO THE 'PINK SIDE'... !

IT'S LIKE GOING TO THE 'DARK SIDE'..! .....OH, NOOOOOOOO!!!

QUICK! - TomP and all other 'Stick Yankers'; Say something good to save this poor lad from certain regret!!!!!

Don't give up on your Tremec!!!!!!
"Beat 'em with your Stick!"

Ryan

[This message has been edited by Ryan Wilke (edited 07-19-2002).]


Save your breath Ryan. I think the gear jammers have lost this man. Only time (and money) will tell.

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 4538
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 07-19-2002 10:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
From what I have seen, and this is just my personal observation, but the guys who do run stickshifts in weekly brackets that are competative, have alot more money in it than almost all of the pink t shirt guys. My buddy who has a stick shift car, and it is competative, has a jerico trans, a verti-gate shifter, and a clutch that cost him $1500. He has as much in his clutch and shifter as I do my trans and custom convertor.

While it is possible to be competative with a clutch car in todays bracket classes, it isnt very economical nor an easy task to accomplish.

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Rory McNeil
Gearhead

Posts: 1210
From: Surrey, B.C. Canada
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 07-20-2002 02:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rory McNeil   Click Here to Email Rory McNeil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My experiances with auto vs stick? Well, my street/strip 302 Fairmont went from a best of 13.72ET with a C4 with a B&M "Holeshot" converter(approx 2500 stall), to a best of 12.80ET, by only changing to a stock 5.0 Mustang T5 trans, with a stock clutch & Hurst shifter (plus it knocked 800 rpm off the freeway RPM,AND got better gas mileage). On my race car, my best numbers with a rollerized, low geared C6, with a 8" convertor (4500 rpm on the foot brake, 5200 on the transbrake)was 10.55ET @126 mph, switching to a Jerico 4 speed & Mcleod clutch returned [email protected] The best 60 ft with the auto was 1.41 on the trans brake, best with the stick is 1.32 . The street car has been a stick for 6 years now, the 428 car for 4 years, the only breakage to either vehicle has been 1 stock axle in the 302 cars 8.8 diff. Both cars are raced regularily, & quite sucsessfully, too, I might add. As for being competitive, I believe if you look at the NHRA Stock world champions for the past 10-15 years, the 4 speed folk have taken the title about 1/2 the time, even though automatics outnumber sticks by 10 to 1. Has an automatic Stocker even made it to the semi finals at Indy the past couple of years? If a car runs faster with an automatic than a 4 or 5 speed, then I`d have to say that the driving left a LOT to be desired!!

------------------
78 Fairmont 428 4 speed [email protected]
80 Fairmont 302 5 speed [email protected]
85 Mustang NHRA Stocker under construction, 302 5 speed

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Buster
Gearhead

Posts: 780
From: Orlando
Registered: May 2002

posted 07-20-2002 09:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Buster   Click Here to Email Buster     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Even tho I run a rollerized C4, I love a stick. My daily driver is a stick, 1985 SVO.

I have seen guys that run sticks be very consistent.

One day at the track I saw a yellow 1970 351C Stang make 3 passes... 10.48, 10.48 and his last run was a 10.47 with a stick. I was very impressed.

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TomP
Gearhead

Posts: 4812
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99

posted 07-21-2002 04:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for TomP   Click Here to Email TomP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
DON'T DO IT!!

Don't let the dark pink forces take you!!

As far as slushboxes winning Indy (US Nationals) i think Bret Kepner can answer this better, but it appears that in Stock Eliminator (brackets unless two cars of the same class) the sticks have many more victories than automatics. Of the past World Champions more than a fair share are stick drivers.

I know in the class i race in an automatic has NEVER won... thats in several dozen races

As for cost... i have never needed to touch my tranny, i did run a $125 rebuilt stock clutch for several years, my shifter was $40 at a swap meet. It has a much higher resale value, used Jericos go for almost what i paid new.If you look at the long term it isn't more expensive.

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Mario428
Journeyman

Posts: 61
From: Charlottetown, PEI, Canada
Registered: Nov 2001

posted 07-21-2002 08:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mario428   Click Here to Email Mario428     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
TomP, I have seen you & Rory refer to this class before, could you give us some more details about required equipment?
Seems to me a manual tranny may be required. GRIN

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 1547
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 07-21-2002 12:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sticks get more power to the rear wheels. They ARE more efficient.

Automatics are easier to win brackets with. They launch more consistently, and you can even have electronics shift them for you at whatever rpm is desired... and to boot, a powerglide has only two gears, so there's only one shift to make. Automatics can also use transbrakes that are tied into delay boxes that will practically allow the car to launch itself... Sounds pretty boring to me. Go to the starting line, let go of the button, and steer with one hand with the other one handing out the window. Might as well get in the taurus and go to the Wal-Mart.

Now for the stickshift crowd...

Yes, these DO take more work to get right for track duty, but they ARE the quickest way down the strip. Why do you think they have weight penalties for the stick cars in all the 'street' car races?

For a real STREET car, they are the ONLY way to go. The driving experience is WAY more fun... and since there is no 'loose converter' they are much more streetable. Overdrive transmissions make highway driving painless.

My car would be a 'dog' with a streetable converter. The little 302 just doesn't have enough lower rpm power to get itself out of the hole with anything but an 8" converter stalling around 4.5k rpm. The stickshift allows the car to be totally streetable, while still allowing it to run good times at the track.

In the 'nostalgia' (older cars with no electronics) class at the Ford races, Out of 150-170 cars, I've managed to get to the semis three times. (out of around seven races). The first time was at National Trail with my mother riding shotgun the whole time. (I took her for a ride the first round expecting to loose, but didn't, and had to keep her to dial the car correctly) The second time was at Xenia, and the last time was at Norwalk. I was even running nitrous there, and still took home $50. Most of my lights were in the 0.530's

Against cars without electronics, a stick racer is at a disadvantage but can still do ok. But the street is where I have the most fun with the car, it will ALWAYS be a 'gear jammer'. Those rolling 2nd gear clutch dumping John Force burnouts are just way too much fun.

Hot automatic cars can be fun as well, but with their loose converters, are just limited to short distance cruises that don't involve much highway travel. Overdrive is not an answer, either. The loose converter required to get much out of an automatic, is going to stall 3500+ rpm. An automatic overdrive (while being a heavy powerhog) will just be slipping the converter in OD... A stick car can cruise at 2500 rpm with no worries about burning up the trans.

Did we even mention the 'FUN FACTOR of banging gears????

You serious bracket guys... Sorry for my $0.02, I know you have to do whatever it takes to be competitive. But sticks are the only way to go (in my opinion) for a street ride.

Good Luck!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

[This message has been edited by n2oMike (edited 07-21-2002).]

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Rory McNeil
Gearhead

Posts: 1210
From: Surrey, B.C. Canada
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 07-21-2002 03:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rory McNeil   Click Here to Email Rory McNeil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mario, for more info, you can check out our BC Supershifter web site at :bcsupershifter.com
Although it`s not too fancy, it does have some good info, & the members page features several of our cars.

------------------
78 Fairmont 428 4 speed [email protected]
80 Fairmont 302 5 speed [email protected]
85 Mustang NHRA Stocker under construction, 302 5 speed

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Mario428
Journeyman

Posts: 61
From: Charlottetown, PEI, Canada
Registered: Nov 2001

posted 07-22-2002 06:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mario428   Click Here to Email Mario428     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Looks like fun for you guys. Running a class with everyone running the same equipment.
The only reason I brought it up is that Tom's post seems to indicate that it is an open class and only cars with sticks have won.
I knew the basic rules and laughed when I saw Tom's comments about only a stick car ever winning.
I did see though that clutch-automatics are allowed so I guess it would be clutch cars not stick cars.

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capri man
Gearhead

Posts: 3385
From: doerun, ga.
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 07-22-2002 08:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for capri man   Click Here to Email capri man     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 65_289:
Yeah, I am. I want to get into bracket racing, and I suck *** at shifting.



did any of you read the original post??

------------------
mike r
racing is real
everything else is just a game.
81 capri-7.56 @88mph 1/8
1.56 60 ft.
http://prestage.com/site/site_display.asp?SiteID=141

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jkilroy
Gearhead

Posts: 1719
From: Vicksburg, MS
Registered: Dec 99

posted 07-22-2002 08:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jkilroy   Click Here to Email jkilroy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think sticks are fantastic, even my F250 has a stick, as well as my 98 GT daily driver. Now if someone can suggest a way to put a stick behind my future 545 for less than $5000 and have it live please let me know. Also, street cars don't run straight cut gears, so no trannys with straight cut gears qualify.

------------------
Jay Kilroy
68' Fastback GT 390
"No such thing as a cam thats too big"

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19704
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 07-22-2002 09:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Actually, it may be a "Purple" shirt very soon.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator/ non 65-66 Mustang owner sensitivity co-ordinator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

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65_289
Gearhead

Posts: 761
From:
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 07-22-2002 11:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 65_289   Click Here to Email 65_289     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
Actually, it may be a "Purple" shirt very soon.


Royal Purple making an auto trans fluid?

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 1547
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 07-22-2002 12:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by n2oMike:

My car would be a 'dog' with a streetable converter. The little 302 just doesn't have enough lower rpm power to get itself out of the hole with anything but an 8" converter stalling around 4.5k rpm.

Hot automatic cars can be fun, but with their loose converters, are just limited to short distance cruises that don't involve much highway travel. Overdrive is not an answer, either. The loose converter required to get much out of an automatic, is going to stall 3500+ rpm. An automatic overdrive (while being a heavy powerhog) will just be slipping the converter in OD...


Well, I guess nitrous can change things... A nitrous car can be built with a tighter converter since the bottle will give it all the low-end power it needs to get it out of the hole. But I'm still not switching.

Good Luck!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

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TomP
Gearhead

Posts: 4812
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99

posted 07-22-2002 01:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for TomP   Click Here to Email TomP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mario

Yeah OK, so i fudged the statistics... no worse than those "Speed Kills" campaigns

Mike is right about the streetability thing... and also about the "driving to WalMart" bit.... if you race for fun you might as well have fun.

As for sucking *** (hmm?) at shifting ... practice. Sometimes it's the car not the driver, find the problem.

As for straight cut gears not being streetable, they are noisy, but obviously can be driven. Really old vintage cars are commonly non synchro and straight cut gears... though you don't often see those old Hupmobile drivers powershifting

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 1501
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 07-22-2002 03:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TomP:
...Sometimes it's the car not the driver, find the problem.

I'd agree with you 110%, TomP!

65_289,
See if you can have a vetern stick guy check the adjustment on your shifter & your clutch linkage; if either one is out of adjustment, shifting can be a real pain-in-the-a$$ and very discouraging - just don't give up on your Stick so easily just yet!!

Don't allow yourself to be drawn into the dark-pink-colored cooler-needing fluid!

Personally, as long as I've got a working right arm & left leg, you won't find me in a slush-boxed, push-button-activiated, 'Point-N-Steer' car!

Long Live the Stick!

Ryan

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19704
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 07-22-2002 03:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Point and steer car huh?????

Well at least us "slush boxers" are out racing every weekend.

We can generally get down the track time after time without breaking stuff too.

I love to drive a stick and do it better than most people I know, but I just can't afford to keep on breaking all of that expensive Jerico and Ram stuff.

And.........before Tomp, Rory, No2 Mike, or any other stick shift proponant jumps in here and talks about how trouble free there transmissions and clutchs are, don't forget that I am great friends with Everett Hill, Shaun & Red LeBlanc, Mark Tallent, John Calvert, Jeff Colvert (who also just gave up on his stick due to breakage cost), Don and All Keen, and most of the FAST FoMoCo stick S/SS racers. NONE of them can make 10 passes without breaking somehthing. That is a FACT! I just gave up and worked on my automatic combo. I have a nice JPT sponsorship and enjoy relative non parts breaking success with all three cars. (prototype testing not included)

PURPLE SHIRTS FOREVER!

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator/ non 65-66 Mustang owner sensitivity co-ordinator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 1501
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 07-22-2002 04:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
Point and steer car huh?????

-- Hmmmmmmm, It seems we've found a touchy spot on our man Alex!!!
That's OK, Alex, we still luv ya!!

And yeah, those of us who keep practicing & learn-to-luv to run the "Manuals are for Tractors" transmissions, REALLY get a BIG A$$ GRIN when we 'oar' past a 'pink shirt' guy with our simple old-tech stick setup!!

Who was it anyway that once said,
"Real Race Cars have three pedals..." ?

Seriously though, I respect the racers who chose to run an auto.... like running a Ford over a chebbie, Olds, etc. it's your choice & I respect all of them.

I also know that Alex, KV and the rest aren't 'adjusting their radio with your right hand' when they launch their race car - you're busy - busy beating 'dose chebbies - which is very important indeed!

Ryan

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19704
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 07-22-2002 09:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
By the by, KV and myself actually shift our cars at over 8000 RPM. We don't use no stinkin' electric or air operated "SISSY SHIFTERS"!

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator/ non 65-66 Mustang owner sensitivity co-ordinator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

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jsracingbbf
Gearhead

Posts: 1677
From: Batesville,MS. , U.S.A.
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 07-22-2002 10:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jsracingbbf   Click Here to Email jsracingbbf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I use both, sometimes my arm and sometimes an RPM activated switch, and if you think I'm not busy in a low 9 second ride think again. Or better yet strap in I'll let you see what it feels like. If that don't make a beliver out of you, take the other lane with your stick car. If you win , I'll cry uncle. and my car ain't bottle fed LOL

------------------
Jerry Smith
69 Mustang Pro ET Drag
Only 'lil boys wear Bowties

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 4538
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 07-22-2002 11:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I want to dial 'em and run 'em
especially 1/8 mile racing. Like I said in another post, my last 3 passes saturday were, 6.4098, 6.4095, 6.4023, and that is with a three speed auto car, that I shift, no electric shifters for me. The pass before those was a 6.4199, that I hit the brakes on pretty hard and took almost 2 full mph off, and based on the halftrack time, it would have been another high 6.40.

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TomP
Gearhead

Posts: 4812
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99

posted 07-23-2002 02:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for TomP   Click Here to Email TomP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ryan

New slogan here... i'll try it out...

Automatics, not that there's anything wrong with that.

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Rory McNeil
Gearhead

Posts: 1210
From: Surrey, B.C. Canada
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 07-23-2002 11:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rory McNeil   Click Here to Email Rory McNeil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Alex,yes, I have a couple of friends who DO bust up their Jerico`s fairly regularily in their Super Stockers. Both cars run deep into the 9`s at over 3500 lbs, both are former record holders, both realize that if they used the clutch to shift, they wouldn`t tear up their stuff, but they feel that that tenth or so is well worth the expense of keeping a spare trans, and replacing pieces on a regular basis. Personally, I could maybe justify this mentality in a tight "heads up" race, or for setting a record, but I don`t understand why they elect to do this on every run, but they both have a LOT more money than me, so if they don`t mind the expensive thrashing, well good for them. However, the SS/F Chevelle 396/375hp,ran for two years as a bracket car before he switched it to S/Stock, with a 522 ci BB Chev & a Jerico. It ran considerably quicker than it does in S/S trim (9.2&3`s @ over 140 mph), but then he was using the clutch, and never broke a trans. So, this heavy breakage is mainly "self-inflicted". Both TomP`s 64 Fairlane, & my Fairmont are heavier & faster than Hill`s S/S Mustang, neither of us have ever broke our Jerico`s, mines been in for 4 years, Tom`s must be 10 years old now.

------------------
78 Fairmont 428 4 speed [email protected]
80 Fairmont 302 5 speed [email protected]
85 Mustang NHRA Stocker under construction, 302 5 speed

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19704
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 07-23-2002 12:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Heavier and faster maybe Rory, but not for what you have for power plants. No offence buddy.
I used to have many light "bracket" cars with big motors, sticks and autos that were a bunch faster than MM.
None of them were record holders.
None of them were built to race against other cars in classes where there are "spec rules". None of them were really ever pushed to their limits. Seems to me that Tomp has broken a trans or two and a clutch or two over the few years that I have known him.
All S/SS racers always want to go as fast as they possibly can. That's why they shift clutchless, run low oil, etc. If we just wanted to be "out there" we would all have big block powerslide bracket cars.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator/ non 65-66 Mustang owner sensitivity co-ordinator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
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steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 6522
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 07-23-2002 10:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
SOOO,

Did you order a c-4 yet?
You won't be disappointed

SteveW

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65_289
Gearhead

Posts: 761
From:
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 07-23-2002 10:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 65_289   Click Here to Email 65_289     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by steve'66:
SOOO,

Did you order a c-4 yet?
You won't be disappointed

SteveW


Not yet. Gonna talk to a local builder (on Friday) as well as JPT. In the mean time, I have an A/C system to pull & sell and an oil leak (it seems like a rear main )to fix.

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TomP
Gearhead

Posts: 4812
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99

posted 07-24-2002 04:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for TomP   Click Here to Email TomP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No tranny breakage whatsoever... broke all the lining off cheapo stock replacement clutch discs, my homemade shifter rods fail me on occasion... tranny has only been out once, and wasn't taken apart. last time the cover was off was the day it arrived a decade ago...had to see what it looked like inside

Come to think of it i haven't broken a toploader, truck 4 speed, T5 or any other tranny i've ever raced. Maybe i ain't trying hard enough. Haven't launched my ramp truck any higher than 5000, my Ranger any higher than 6000 and my Fairlane over 7200.

Of course we know Jamie, he could break a Lenco with a 90hp 4 cylinder.

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19704
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 07-24-2002 10:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OK Tomp, I remember the clutch. I must have been thinking about the motor.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator/ non 65-66 Mustang owner sensitivity co-ordinator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

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TomP
Gearhead

Posts: 4812
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99

posted 07-24-2002 12:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for TomP   Click Here to Email TomP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Alex... perhaps i can add that motor breakage thing to the "&*[email protected]#$% Dowel pin" post!

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67Coupster
Gearhead

Posts: 179
From: Fortson, GA, USA
Registered: Oct 2001

posted 07-24-2002 12:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 67Coupster   Click Here to Email 67Coupster     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My '67 is the first stick shift car that I ever drag raced. It has been a pain in the [email protected]% to set up and I've broke a few parts along the way but now that it's close it is the most fun I've ever had at the drag strip. Also the crowds love to see a stick car go down the track and you can't beat the feeling of dumping the clutch at 6 grand on slicks. Arrrr Arrrr Arrrrr

------------------
James
67 Coupe
393W, 4 Speed,
7.07 @ 98MPH 1/8
1.52 60'
'66 Fairlane 500XL
Daily Driver

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 33371
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 07-24-2002 05:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TomP:
Haven't launched my ramp truck any higher than 5000

Man, I'd love to see that truck in action!

------------------
My Wild Oats have turned to Shredded Wheat.

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Rory McNeil
Gearhead

Posts: 1210
From: Surrey, B.C. Canada
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 07-24-2002 05:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rory McNeil   Click Here to Email Rory McNeil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You got that right, James. Back when I ran a C6 in my Fairmont, I had a trans brake, & launched it wide open (5200 rpm), but it didn`t even come CLOSE to the blast dumping the clutch does. I do admit that your basic automatic with stock internals & a manual valve body, & a good 8 or 9" convertor may cost less than a new Jerico or GForce stick trans, BUT, if you want a real "Whiz Bang" RACE automatic, its a whole other story! I`ve seen several locals spend well over $7000. on a super duper Powerglide, by the time they get the Dedenbear case,billet gear sets with custom ratio`s, & all the other bells & whistles. Sure there any lots of low 10 second cars like mine running stock gear sets, & rotating assemblies, but how many of them go for 10 years without a rebuild like TomP`s Jerico? I bought my Jerico from a many time NHRA record holding 8 second 57 Corvette SS/AM racer, who bought it new in 1991, and although he DID have it repaired for a cracked gear once, it never blew up on him. Alex, how much would one of those all aluminum lightweight JPT C4`s cost a non sponsored mortal human being? I know you (& me) hate the Powerslide, they are by far the most common trans used in drag cars, & everyone I know that runs one, carries a spare, & usually needs to put it in at least once a year. I have driven several 9 second S/Gas cars with glides over the years, & although they were all quicker than my Fairmont, they all felt slow & boring by comparision. Like TomP said, if you race for fun, ya might as well have some fun!

------------------
78 Fairmont 428 4 speed [email protected]
80 Fairmont 302 5 speed [email protected]
85 Mustang NHRA Stocker under construction, 302 5 speed

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19704
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 07-24-2002 11:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have driven many a powerslide motivated S/G and bracket car also Rory. Most were much faster than MM and ALL were boring as all hell. 8.90's in a powerslide car is less exciting than 13 seconds in my 89 Mustang P/SA car.
The projected price for the all aluminum C-4 Megalite with a brake is about $3500 or so. JPT is trying to get it under $3000 if at all possible.
By the way, I have NEVER launched MM off of the trans brake wide open yet. 5400 RPM is as high as I have tried so far. Some day I'll pull the chip and let her rip at 7500 and see what happens.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator/ non 65-66 Mustang owner sensitivity co-ordinator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

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clevelandstyle
Gearhead

Posts: 638
From: Connersville, IN
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 07-24-2002 11:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for clevelandstyle     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
Some day I'll pull the chip and let her rip at 7500 and see what happens.


Yee haa! Hold your hat!

------------------
Ben
Grabber Green '70 Mach I 351C 4V
Robbin Egg Blue '79 Fairmont 351C 4V

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bluestreek
Gearhead

Posts: 1289
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 07-25-2002 01:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for bluestreek   Click Here to Email bluestreek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by clevelandstyle:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Moneymaker:
[b]Some day I'll pull the chip and let her rip at 7500 and see what happens.


Yee haa! Hold your hat!


[/B][/QUOTE]

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65_289
Gearhead

Posts: 761
From:
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 07-25-2002 09:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 65_289   Click Here to Email 65_289     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
...Some day I'll pull the chip and let her rip at 7500 and see what happens.

[tim taylor] More power!!!! argh argh argh argh! [/tim taylor]

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[email protected]
Gearhead

Posts: 422
From: Lakewood, CO, USA
Registered: Jun 2001

posted 07-25-2002 10:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for JCQuinn@work   Click Here to Email JCQuinn@work     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Alex, When I tried coming off the trans brake at max stall the phrase "reach for the sky pardner" took on a whole new meaning. I know you don't like wheelie bars but they saved my a$$.

John

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19704
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 07-25-2002 12:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well John, with a 7 inch converter, 2.93 low gear, 6.20 rear gears, and 7500 RPM of stall it should be one hell of a launch anyway.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator/ non 65-66 Mustang owner sensitivity co-ordinator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

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TomP
Gearhead

Posts: 4812
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99

posted 07-25-2002 12:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for TomP   Click Here to Email TomP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wheelies are

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[email protected]
Gearhead

Posts: 422
From: Lakewood, CO, USA
Registered: Jun 2001

posted 07-25-2002 01:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JCQuinn@work   Click Here to Email JCQuinn@work     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes TomP wheelies are cool.

They also can kill cars and people. I watched a guy die many years ago because of a giant wheelie so when I get a car capable of wheelies I want bars to keep the fun from getting out of hand.

John

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Rory McNeil
Gearhead

Posts: 1210
From: Surrey, B.C. Canada
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 07-25-2002 02:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rory McNeil   Click Here to Email Rory McNeil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I`ve seen quite a few bumper scraping wheelies from cars without wheelie bars, other than the occasional squashed oil pan or headers, damage was minimal on "re entry". However, I have also seen several wheelie bar equipped cars crash heavily, when one wheelie wheel contacted more than the other, steering the car into the guardrail. There are many ways to tame down wheelstands (ie, limiting the front end travel, suspension adjustments, tire pressures) without having to hang a set of "training wheels" out back. Another problem with the wheelie bars is that they often hit the pavement too hard, unloading the rear tires, which can also send a car on a wild ride. It seems that most of the cars I see at the track never pick the front tires up by over a foot anyhow, so the wheelie bars are kind of a "image" thing, like a parachute on a 10 second car.

------------------
78 Fairmont 428 4 speed [email protected]
80 Fairmont 302 5 speed [email protected]
85 Mustang NHRA Stocker under construction, 302 5 speed

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Gearhead
Gearhead

Posts: 2164
From: Vancouver Island, Great Wet North
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 07-25-2002 02:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gearhead   Click Here to Email Gearhead     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I love being a fly on the wall in this forum... this thread has been like a tennis match!! I've learned a LOT from you guys, and it's great to see discussions like this without people getting all pissy.

Maybe one day I'll own/drive/ride in a car capable of pulling the front wheels off the ground. Rory, TomP... got a passengers seat in either of those 10 second rides?

------------------
Cheers,
Ian
M&M Member #395
-------------------
'79 Mustang Indy 500 Pace Car
Ian's Pace Car Website
Vancouver Island Mustang Association Website
Indy Pace Car Registry of Mustangs Official Website

"A friend will bail you out of jail after you do something stupid... a real friend will be sitting beside you saying 'That was SO COOL!!'".

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[email protected]
Gearhead

Posts: 422
From: Lakewood, CO, USA
Registered: Jun 2001

posted 07-25-2002 03:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JCQuinn@work   Click Here to Email JCQuinn@work     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Rory

"Training wheels"? You sure are hard on people who disagree with you.

Did it ever occur to you that people who are too stupid to properly align their "Training wheels" are probably too stupid to properly align the rear end also.

The problem with the macho approach is if your car does large (3' or more) wheel stands, it can get much higher with no warning when atmospheric/traction conditions change unexpectedly.

I respect your right to run without "Training wheels" but would hate to lose you. I don't know you personally but I do enjoy reading your posts.

Joun

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[email protected]
Gearhead

Posts: 422
From: Lakewood, CO, USA
Registered: Jun 2001

posted 07-25-2002 03:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JCQuinn@work   Click Here to Email JCQuinn@work     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Cool, I mis-spelled my own name, now you all know how smart I am.

John

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 4538
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 07-25-2002 04:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, I must throw in my 2 cents worth. My car does not do three foot wheel stands, at least I dont think it does. However, with the little motor in the car last year, it was running high 6.70's, low 6.80's and without the wheelie bars it was pulling the front wheels about a foot abd a half. Now I have the wheelie bars on to control the wheelstand. They are supposed to be a safety item, not a tuning device for a poor launching car. Does my car launch straigth with the bars? Yes. Does it launch straight without the bars? Yes. Every picture of my car from this year and teh end of last year, you can see the wheelie bars on the ground. I admitt my bars are possibly too low, at the highest setting they are 8" off the ground, but it makes for a controlled and repeatable launch. Does that make them "training wheels"? Not hardly. My buddy's 74 Nova will stand on the back bumper and not set the front tires down till 80 feet out, but the car isnt as repeatable as mine and therefore doesnt win as many rounds.

I do agree though, that alot of racecars have them just for the look, and not becouse they will ever touch the ground. But not all cars are that way. Mine will 60' 1.39 in terrible air, and 1.34-1.35 in good air, and with ladderbars, that involves the front end wanting to go to the moon.

I have never launched this car WOT the brake, so I have no idea what it will do. I do know that, with a 6400 rpm convertor it would be alot of fun if it would hook, or not break something.

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jsracingbbf
Gearhead

Posts: 1677
From: Batesville,MS. , U.S.A.
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 07-25-2002 05:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jsracingbbf   Click Here to Email jsracingbbf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Generally, the reason wheel stands look so cool on cars without wheelie bars is that it gives the illusion of massive horsepower, when in fact it is result of HP and how the suspension is set-up. A friend of mine has a 67 scamaro that runs 6.70's no wheelie bars and he tote's the wheels about 4 ft for about 30-40 ft. My car lifts the wheels maybe six inches and runs a good bit quicker than his. Wheel standing cars, if not set-up properly can break many things like axles, wheels, pans, suspensions, run over people, etc...etc... that doesn't mean it is going to happen or that you shouldn't do wheelstands. It's just something else to keep in mind when setting up a suspension. Some cars need more Pitch rotation, some don't. Some people like manual tranny's some don't. If everybodies car was the same racing would look alot like Pro-Stock does now, maybe .. that is if all drivers were the same. Personally, I think stick cars are massive fun, but then again I like win lights also and for My car this means an automatic. I can drive a stick car no prob, but over the yrs. I have tended to go with what works best for my set-up. Besides, if I had anymore fun I don't think I could stand it.

------------------
Jerry Smith
69 Mustang Pro ET Drag
Only 'lil boys wear Bowties

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 1501
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 07-26-2002 10:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TomP:
Automatics, not that there's anything wrong with that.

TomP, I like that!!

Seriously, It's obvious to me that it's a matter of personal preference as to what 'power transfer package' (trans) or suspension control device (wheelie bars) each of us choose to run or not run.

I liked what Jerry Smith said earlier and think it's worth repeating: "...I have tended to go with what works best for my set-up. Besides, if I had anymore fun I don't think I could stand it."

-- I also agree with what Ian implied that it's way that Steve L & Alex run this Forum in a manner which encourages DISCUSSION of these differences & yet prevents it from turning into total FLAMES!!!
-- THANKS, GUYS!!

Ryan

[This message has been edited by Ryan Wilke (edited 07-26-2002).]

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 4538
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 07-26-2002 11:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ryan Wilke:

-- I also agree with what Ian implied that it's way that Steve L & Alex run this Forum in a manner which encourages DISCUSSION of these differences & yet prevents it from turning into total FLAMES!!!
-- THANKS, GUYS!!

Ryan


Aint that the truth. Just about anywhere else on the 'net and this would have gotten ugly. But not here.

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 33371
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 07-26-2002 04:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ryan Wilke:
I also agree with what Ian implied that it's way that Steve L & Alex run this Forum in a manner which encourages DISCUSSION of these differences & yet prevents it from turning into total FLAMES!!!
-- THANKS, GUYS!!

It's because our members are mature and respectful that this all works so well. I do boot out the jerks when they pop up, but that seems to be a pretty rare occurance.

------------------
My Wild Oats have turned to Shredded Wheat.

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Dusty Kiser
Gearhead

Posts: 126
From: Bethel,Oh USA
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 07-26-2002 11:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dusty Kiser   Click Here to Email Dusty Kiser     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mario428:
Looks like fun for you guys. Running a class with everyone running the same equipment.
The only reason I brought it up is that Tom's post seems to indicate that it is an open class and only cars with sticks have won.
I knew the basic rules and laughed when I saw Tom's comments about only a stick car ever winning.
I did see though that clutch-automatics are allowed so I guess it would be clutch cars not stick cars.

I believe if you look at the records in National Dragster and elsewhere you'll find that in every stock and super stock class the stick class records are lower. Years ago we favored the automatics for street racing because the tires were so poor we couldn't hook up the sticks as well, but when tires improved the gloves came off! breakage can be an issue, but the tradeoff is driveline shock vs heat. I like sticks for one reason, I think the fun in racing is the driving experience. The clutch gives a lot more flexabillity in how the car performs. You're not hampered by a too tight or too loose convertor. You can launch however you da..ed well please! It makes living with a more radical engine on the street much easier. I used to get these Hot Rod Magazine educated geniuses saying " you're way overcammed aren't you?" To that I'd say " If you believe that all you need to do is pull up beside it!"

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