Brought to you in part by:

Great deals on auto restoration supplies!

.


  Mustangsandmore Forums
  Ford Racing
  First time out on Alky

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq | search

next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   First time out on Alky
Butch Jennings
Gearhead

Posts: 633
From: No. California
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 06-22-2002 06:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Butch Jennings   Click Here to Email Butch Jennings     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Well, we didn't exactly light the world on fire, in fact the car is running rather poor. It's down about .3 and 5 mph from it's best pass on gas and it doesn't respond to the change in the tune-up like I would expect it to.

Does anyone here have a newer Holley catalog that can tell me what jets came in this Dominator (list# 80586) out of the box? I got it second hand and it had 154's in the front and 188's in the rear, that seemed way off to me but I thought I'd give it a shot before changing it around.

To make a long story short (kinda) I ended up jetting up the primary a total of 14 numbers (now 168/188) and though it kept getting better to the 1/8 mile with every jet change it wouldn't run any better in the second half all night. It never helped or hurt the mph more than 1 mph over 4 runs....with 14 numbers!

My runs were:

1st pass 10.75 @ 125.7 1.528 60'

2nd pass 10.70 @ 126.0 1.524 60'

3rd pass 10.66 @ 124.9 1.494 60'

4th pass 10.62 @ 125.9 1.490 60'

Now I've always thrown fuel at it until it slows down and then had a pretty good idea what it wants, but the fact that it's lost a bunch of ET and mph over my gas combo and won't run in the back half has me baffled. Could I have a torque convertor going away or is it still way lean? I think that jetting the carb closer to square (180's?) would be a better way to go but I'd like to know what Holley had in it to begin with....it's got the same size air bleeds in it front and rear.

The car seems to run hard and doesn't nose over at all but it just won't pull in high gear, is this characteristic of a torque convertor problem? I came home today with more questions and really no answers, I'm confused....I don't want to chase the tune-up around if I need to fix something else.

------------------
Butch
460 powered 1967 Comet Cyclone
10.271 @ 130.231
Butcher's Home Page
"Friends don't let friends drive Chevys"

IP: Logged

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 27499
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 06-22-2002 09:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
www.holley.com

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator/ non 65-66 Mustang owner sensitivity co-ordinator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

IP: Logged

Buster
Gearhead

Posts: 1635
From: Hurricane alley
Registered: May 2002

posted 06-22-2002 10:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Buster   Click Here to Email Buster     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Do you read spark plugs the same way on alky as you do on race fuel?

IP: Logged

Butch Jennings
Gearhead

Posts: 633
From: No. California
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 06-22-2002 02:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Butch Jennings   Click Here to Email Butch Jennings     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Thanks Alex, but the numerical listing on the website doesn't include my list#. What do you think of the convertor possibly going away?


Buster, I was looking at heat in the threads of the plugs. I had 3 threads of heat when I started and it's still got 3 threads of heat...the car doesn't seem to act or read much different even with moving up a bunch of jet.

------------------
Butch
460 powered 1967 Comet Cyclone
10.271 @ 130.231
Butcher's Home Page
"Friends don't let friends drive Chevys"

IP: Logged

Butch Jennings
Gearhead

Posts: 633
From: No. California
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 06-23-2002 12:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Butch Jennings   Click Here to Email Butch Jennings     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

No opinion on the torque convertor? Anyone?

------------------
Butch
460 powered 1967 Comet Cyclone
10.271 @ 130.231
Butcher's Home Page
"Friends don't let friends drive Chevys"

IP: Logged

n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 2831
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 06-23-2002 08:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The best way to rule out the converter is to throw the gasoline carb back on there and see what happens.

From my very limited experience with alcohol, being rich with alcohol won't slow the car much, but will wash the oil off the cylinders. Being lean causes major heat, and can torch head gaskets and plug electrodes. To top it all off, knowing whether the engine is rich or lean takes a bit of experience since the fuel makes plug reading much more difficult... but you probably already know all this.

Good Luck!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

IP: Logged

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 27499
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 06-23-2002 11:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Easy test. Need to know one thing first Butch. DO you have a trans brake or not?

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator/ non 65-66 Mustang owner sensitivity co-ordinator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

IP: Logged

jsracingbbf
Gearhead

Posts: 2954
From: Batesville,MS. , U.S.A.
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 06-23-2002 12:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jsracingbbf   Click Here to Email jsracingbbf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Butch,
If it's lean on Alky the water temp will go up faster than normal. When my car is just right, it takes some running to get it up to temperature to run. You don't have a barrel valve to set so I can't really help on the jet thing. Are your running a EGT? Does the car spit or pop during a burnout? You may be onto something with the convertor. Hang in there it will get better.
Jerry

IP: Logged

Butch Jennings
Gearhead

Posts: 633
From: No. California
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 06-23-2002 01:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Butch Jennings   Click Here to Email Butch Jennings     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Alex, I don't run a trans brake, I footbrake it on the floor with a 2-step.


Jerry and Mike, It's a little hard to tell from my limited time with alky. It doesn't heat up more than about 5 degrees during the pass, but at the same time, it's not dirty at all during the burnout like I expected and the oil's not a mess at all either. I can see heat on 3 threads of the plugs, so I tend to think it's still a little lean....but not .3 to .5 and 5+ mph lean, that's why I'm questioning the convertor. I think I'm going to square it up at .180 next time I run it, it still has a 20 number spread in it (168/188)....If square's good for gas I would think it should be good for alky. The gas carb has been sold and is gone.


Another reason that I'm thinking it has a trans/convertor problem, when we ran it at Sears Point (or whatever they call it now) 2 weeks ago it was puking trans fluid out of the vent and smoking every pass. I pulled some fluid out of it and ran it about half a quart low (it's got a deep pan) at Sac this last time out and it didn't leak out at all.

The car was slow at Sears too (on gas) but I thought it was because of having the wrong gear (3.89) in the car. But it was doing the same thing, it seemed to run pretty good to half track and then just won't pull in high gear. It's not like it's down on power, it's more like someone throws out an anchor (or a small chute) and it's just not rolling good.


I'm just not real familiar with the characteristics of a convertor going bad, I've been told that it won't mph first, then the 60' will fall off, then it quits all together. I just thought I'd bounce it off of you guys, I guess I won't know if it's bad until I have it cut open

------------------
Butch
460 powered 1967 Comet Cyclone
10.271 @ 130.231
Butcher's Home Page
"Friends don't let friends drive Chevys"

[This message has been edited by Butch Jennings (edited 06-23-2002).]

IP: Logged

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 27499
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 06-23-2002 02:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Warm the car to race temp. Pull the two step chip. Put the trans in high gear, hold the brakes as tight as you can and mat it! Hold it for no more than 2-3 seconds and record the highest RPM. (I assume you have a tell tale or memory tach) If it is on par with what your normal flash stall is then the converter is fine. If it it off 2-500 RPM then you are down on HP with the alky and the tune up. If it is off 1000 or more RPM then the sprag rolled over n the converter.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator/ non 65-66 Mustang owner sensitivity co-ordinator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

IP: Logged

Butch Jennings
Gearhead

Posts: 633
From: No. California
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 06-23-2002 03:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Butch Jennings   Click Here to Email Butch Jennings     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Thanks Alex, I'll try that.

------------------
Butch
460 powered 1967 Comet Cyclone
10.271 @ 130.231
Butcher's Home Page
"Friends don't let friends drive Chevys"

IP: Logged

Dad Vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 1064
From: Moscow, Iowa, USA
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 06-24-2002 10:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dad Vishus   Click Here to Email Dad Vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What about timing?

Kid's Cleveland on alchohol likes lots of timing. 40 to 42 degrees on total timing seems to work best. It also starts better with about 20 degrees of initial.

When Kid tried backing off the timing to 38, the car slowed down. Alky seems to like lots of timing and reacts fairly drastically to minor changes.

Since no mention has been made about timing here, thought it was worth a try. Doesn't take much to experiment a little.

No more water temp change than you are seeing, I'd guess its not lean. We usually would see about 10 degrees of increase with the pump running and the fans off in a pass.

As to the converter, is there any junk in the fluid? That sometimes indicates impending failure. We had a cooler plug up with aluminum shavings when a converter took a dump.

Hope this helps

[This message has been edited by Dad Vishus (edited 06-24-2002).]

IP: Logged

Butch Jennings
Gearhead

Posts: 633
From: No. California
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 06-24-2002 01:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Butch Jennings   Click Here to Email Butch Jennings     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

I bumped the timing from 36 to 40 after the first pass, we were thinking the same thing. It didn't seem to react to the timing change as much as it just kept wanting more fuel.

The trans fluid is clean, I still need to flash the converter up like Alex said.

I'm going to get the car on a front end alignment machine also to rule out an out of whack front end. I never aligned it after I notched the shock towers the first time and this last time I had the engine out I lowered the notch another 1 1/2", I suppose the a-arm mounting point could have moved on me some and screwed up the alignment.

------------------
Butch
460 powered 1967 Comet Cyclone
10.271 @ 130.231
Butcher's Home Page
"Friends don't let friends drive Chevys"

IP: Logged

Butch Jennings
Gearhead

Posts: 633
From: No. California
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 07-04-2002 01:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Butch Jennings   Click Here to Email Butch Jennings     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

I was wrong about the secondary jetting, they are 168's not 188's so it was actually jetted square by the end of the night. I guess my eyes are going away on me...lol. Just thought you guys might want to know.

------------------
Butch
460 powered 1967 Comet Cyclone
10.271 @ 130.231
Butcher's Home Page
"Friends don't let friends drive Chevys"

IP: Logged

kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 6590
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 07-04-2002 04:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
At least yours are marked. Mine dont have any markings on them as to waht size they are. When I got the carb, it came with several small baggies, each one had 2 jets in it, and a big permanent marker number wrote on the outside of the bag. The guy I bought the carb from said that's the way BG sent them to him.

IP: Logged

All times are ET (US)

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | Mustangsandmore Front Page

Copyright 2005, Steve LaRiviere. All Rights Reserved.


Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.47d

Amazon Honor System Click Here to Pay Learn More

[Build a free Mustangsandmore.ws Home Page!]

[Posting Pictures]

[About M&M][Acronyms][Calendar][Chat][Classifieds] [Members' Pics]

[M&M Conventions] [M&M Mug Shots]

[ Mustangsandmore.com Bookstore] [ Smokin' Fords] [Tech Articles]