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Author Topic:   289-302 cylinder wall thickness....
n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 2419
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 06-11-2002 08:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just what is the minimum recommended cylinder wall thickness?

This past weekend I was prepping a Mexican 302 block for oil restrictors, and decided to take some measurements. The thickness of between adjoining (side by side) cylinders on the standard bore block was right around 3/8" (0.375"). I then measured the gap between cylinders. I did this with allen wrenches through the freeze plug holes in the side of the block. All I was able to get between them was 1/8".

So... Total distance between bores is 3/8", with 1/8" of that being air... so that leaves 2/8" (1/4") of metal between the two, half on one cylinder, half on the other. This comes out to 1/8" (0.125") thick cylinders.

Now, assuming there is no core shift, we've got a maximumcylinder thickness of 1/8" (0.125") to work with. How thin can these things go???

I can now see why Alex really likes to fill his overly bored blocks with that Hard Blok filler!

Good Luck!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 2419
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 06-11-2002 10:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have read up on block filler a bit. The 'partial' fill (up to the water pump holes) is what I've got planned. This should stiffen up the cylinders and help them maintain a better ring seal. It will be done BEFORE the block is machined, and each side will be done seperately with the deck horizontal and level... and it will have the head and main studs torqued in place as it cures.

The extra mass of the block filler makes the engine heat up and cool down slower, but it's not supposed to be that much more taxing on the cooling system. Oil temperature is supposed to go up a bit, but I'll be running synthetic oil, and not road racing... so it shouldn't be a problem.

Anyone have any first hand experience (especially street) with filler? I'm using Hard Blok, which is supposed to have the same modulus of expansion as steel. I'll also be cleaning out the water jackets with Muratic Acid to get rid of all the rust, and promote a good -bond-.

Thanks!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 06-11-2002 11:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
.060 over 66 289 block two thirds full, 10 to 1 compression, with clean heads, a good 4 core brass radiator,(Smiths aluminum would have been better) aluminum 289 HP water pump, 7 blade aluminum flex fan, aluminum intake, and a 270S cam. All in a 3300 lb car.
Drove it everywhere in winter or summer. Never got over 200 degrees. Sold the car and it is still running great with about 40k miles on it since I originally did the motor.
Another 302 I did and traded for body work with L-2249F TRW's and .030 over is in a Pinto Pro street deal. Also filled and with about 14 to 1 compression and a .680 roller cam. It has a huge aluminum radiator and CSI water pump. It goes out on cruise nights and car shows with some occasonal drag racing. Never sees the other side of 180 degrees.
Hard BLok used exclusivly in all instances.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator/ non 65-66 Mustang owner sensitivity co-ordinator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 06-11-2002 11:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh yeah, they do get real thin. I was boring a 289 HP block .100 over once and it didn't make it.
We wound up installing 8 4.062 389 Pontiac sleeves in it. Then Hard Blocked it. That motor is running well in a NMRA car right now.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator/ non 65-66 Mustang owner sensitivity co-ordinator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

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Buster
Gearhead

Posts: 1437
From: Hurricane alley
Registered: May 2002

posted 06-11-2002 11:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Buster   Click Here to Email Buster     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mike, I have a SVO Sportsman Block in my 68. I had the block sona-ray (spl?) tested by one of the local speed shops. I will list the specs below. I was told the max bore was .040?, cylinder distortion could happen if I went past that point and loose pressure.

This is an area I am not real good with? I just take their advice.

My block was thicker on the inside, intake side, of the cylinder walls, as well as the outer side of the cylinder walls. But, between the cylinders was the thinnest. The thickest part of the cylinder was at the top and bottom and thinner in the center of the cylinder walls.

The range, between the cylinders, was between 125? to 220? The range on the intake & outer side was between 282? and 360?

I hope this helps?..

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 2419
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 06-18-2002 08:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks guys...

I've been away from the computer for a quite a while, but have been working on the mustang.

I poured Muriatic acid into the water jackets to clean them out... THAT STUFF IS MEAN!!! It ate ALL the rust out. Then I dumped the rust colored liquid out onto the concrete driveway, it it made a big 'acid cloud'. I poured the drivers side water jacket right up to the bottom of the water pump hole, which leaves just under two inches of water jacket below deck. I poured the other side with the same amount of filler, and it filled up about a half inch taller. Hopefully it won't overheat.

I took it to the machine shop to have it checked out and bored. The dial bore gauge had all cylinders but one worn 0.010".... with the other worn 0.015". It's being bored square to the deck, each bank exactly 90 degrees to the other, etc.... and he said that if the block was very far off blueprint, it might not clean up at 0.030", especially the one cylinder, so he will bore that one first and get back with me. I do NOT look forward to prepping my only other Mexican block for oil restrictors, 1/2" head bolts, block filling, screw-in oil plugs, aligning drain back holes, etc. I HOPE it cleans up.

Oh well... as a side note, I looked at the recipt on the pistons. I bought them back when I figured the 'old' engine was about to 'retire', and it was dated April 4, 1996.

Good Luck!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 2419
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 06-20-2002 11:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, there's no need to worry about that rather worn (0.015") cylinder cleaning up at 0.030".... THE BLOCK IS CRACKED!!!

Yep, in two places, between the cylinders AND in the lifter valley. I bought this one at a swap meet for $200... guess it's time to take the one purchased off a buddy for $100 a few years ago and set it up for oil restrictors, 1/2" head bolts, align the oil drainbacks, fill with Hardblok, etc... This, along with the fact that my good racing bud backed out of going to Norwalk, is rough on the motivation. I don't even know if I'll make it now.

It sure would be nice to be able to afford a new motorsport block...

Sorry for the rant...

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 06-20-2002 03:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Bummer

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator/ non 65-66 Mustang owner sensitivity co-ordinator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

IP: Logged

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