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Author
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Topic: Solid roller lifters
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bluestreek
Gearhead Posts: 1724
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 05-08-2002 01:39 PM
   
Many builders seem to think that solid roller lifters doesn't provide enough oiling in the roller and lobe area for long term high mileage use.
Does anyone have any tips or information about modifying SBF solid roller lifters for proper oiling? Thanks, BS
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jkilroy
Gearhead Posts: 1808
From: Vicksburg, MS
Registered: Dec 99
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posted 05-08-2002 02:13 PM
Both CompCams and Crane have a solid roller with grooves to feed oil to the rollers. I don't see why oiling the roller should be any different between solid cams and juice sitcks. The rollers should be getting plenty of splash oil.------------------
Jay Kilroy
68' Fastback GT 390
"No such thing as a cam thats too big"
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 27499
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 05-08-2002 02:22 PM
Those "builders" must be smokin' the wrong stuff.  ------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator/ non 65-66 Mustang owner sensitivity co-ordinator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
US Class Nationals link
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bluestreek
Gearhead Posts: 1724
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 05-08-2002 07:40 PM
 Maybe it's me that's been smokin' the wrong stuff.  I'm just trying to rule out any weak links before I throw this little stroker together. I won't have any spare time to be drinkin' beer if I'm gonna have to tear this thing down every time I turn around.  If you guys say that I shouldn't worry about the solid roller lifters, then, By Golly, I won't.  Thanks
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V8 Thumper
Gearhead Posts: 4681
From: Phoenix, Arizona
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 05-08-2002 09:48 PM
I looked seriously into a solid roller for my little stroker too... I had to weigh the pros and cons and make a decision. Rollers are definately , but 3x the $$$ cool? I dunno... I 'settled' on a 270S; a sensible compromise, if you ask me
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 9533
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 05-08-2002 10:05 PM
As Alex and others have said before,Hydro flat tappets -
Roller hydro 0
Solid flat tappet +
Solid Roller ++ (The only way to fly) Besides you don't have to break in the cam. SteveW
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chips67
Gearhead Posts: 663
From: louisville, ky, usa
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 05-08-2002 10:24 PM
if hydraulic rollers all drop of after 6k...like everybody keeps saying...then why do we have these seriously huge/aggressive hyd. roller profiles from comp and other manufacturers...like in their xe series???? alex? anybody?------------------
67 coupe, 650dp and rpm intake on 5.0 with afr 165 heads, 4 speed, 4.11's.....best so far is [email protected] in 1/8 mile with 1.79 60ft. time.
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n2oMike
Gearhead Posts: 2831
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 05-08-2002 11:26 PM
They are for larger cubic inch engines that can use that much can without spinning the tach much past 6k rpm. You'd be wasting your time with a large hydraulic roller in a 302. Good Luck! ------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220
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bluestreek
Gearhead Posts: 1724
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 05-09-2002 01:07 AM
quote:
Originally posted by V8 Thumper:
I looked seriously into a solid roller for my little stroker too... I had to weigh the pros and cons and make a decision. Rollers are definately , but 3x the $$$ cool? I dunno... I 'settled' on a 270S; a sensible compromise, if you ask me
I started to settle on a good solid flat grind but I remembered an old friend in N.C. that I used to work with and he gave me a good deal on some "low mileage" Crane Nascar roller lifters($80). I then decided to buy an off the shelf CompCams XR268R solid street roller cam ($239), and then all I'll have to do is change the 331 to the 351W firing order. Total cost for my solid roller cam and lifters was only $319!!
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chips67
Gearhead Posts: 663
From: louisville, ky, usa
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 05-09-2002 01:09 AM
thats what i keep hearing. i know youve heard of the NMRA. there is a class in the nmra called "renegade". have been told by at least 3 guys from kintner motorsports (sellersburg i.n.) that they do run hyd. rollers in their cars (which run in the 9's on spray i believe) and that the cams they use are much bigger than mine. if you ever get a subscription to RACE PAGES you will often see their cars featured. its hard to decipher all this conflicting information.------------------
67 coupe, 650dp and rpm intake on 5.0 with afr 165 heads, 4 speed, 4.11's.....best so far is [email protected] in 1/8 mile with 1.79 60ft. time.
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V8 Thumper
Gearhead Posts: 4681
From: Phoenix, Arizona
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 05-09-2002 07:54 AM
quote:
Originally posted by bluestreek:
Total cost for my solid roller cam and lifters was only $319!!
I'd have done the same thing, having scored those lifters at such a bargin
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Dad Vishus
Gearhead Posts: 1064
From: Moscow, Iowa, USA
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 05-09-2002 09:21 AM
Are solid roller lifters good for street use and high mileage?I don't know, but I do know that we ran a set of roller lifters for a 2nd year in Kids racecar and they failed about half way through the season. Rollers siezed up and eventually broke causing damage to the cam lobes. As for using "low mileage" used roller lifters, I'd be darned careful. As for you guys that think hydraulic cams crap out at 6K rpm, I don't buy that. I had a 56 Chebbie years ago with a stock 350 HP 327 hydraulic cam and stock lifters. It was a crate motor with FI heads and high rise aluminum stock intake and a 750 DP. With 456 gears and a Muncie 4 speed I shifted out of 1st at 8300 and at 8000 out of 2nd and 3rd. There was no valve float or lifter pump up. The only non-GM part in this motor was a Mallory dual point distributor. I have always believed that cam profile has as much to do with valve float as lifter type does. ------------------
98 F150 Ext. Cab 4 x 4 5.4L
2000 F350 PSD Crew cab dually
98 US Cargo Phantom II 28'
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 27499
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 05-09-2002 10:31 AM
"low mileage" Crane Nascar roller lifters($80). ????????????????
NASCAR does not allow roller lifters or camshafts!  ------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator/ non 65-66 Mustang owner sensitivity co-ordinator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
US Class Nationals link
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bluestreek
Gearhead Posts: 1724
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 05-09-2002 11:58 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
"low mileage" Crane Nascar roller lifters($80). ????????????????
NASCAR does not allow roller lifters or camshafts!
MM,
You're right, I knew you would say that! . Rules are constantly changing in the different classes and these are Truck series parts. I inspected them when they arrived, and they show no signs of wear and are smooth as silk.
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chips67
Gearhead Posts: 663
From: louisville, ky, usa
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 05-09-2002 10:08 PM
well, i guess there aint a lot of NMRA fans in here. ------------------
67 coupe, 650dp and rpm intake on 5.0 with afr 165 heads, 4 speed, 4.11's.....best so far is [email protected] in 1/8 mile with 1.79 60ft. time.
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V8 Thumper
Gearhead Posts: 4681
From: Phoenix, Arizona
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 05-09-2002 10:13 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
NASCAR does not allow roller lifters or camshafts!
Not in Cup, but I thought they were allowed in Busch and Craftsman Truck, or am I mislead?
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 6590
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 05-09-2002 10:36 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Dad Vishus:
I don't know, but I do know that we ran a set of roller lifters for a 2nd year in Kids racecar and they failed about half way through the season. Rollers siezed up and eventually broke causing damage to the cam lobes.
Tell the whole story. First of all, it was the 3rd season on them. And the 2nd year, the springs went away and the motor was experianing valve float. The valve float was what initially damaged the lifters needle bearings, then causing them to fail when I mistakenly tried to run them that 3rd year without rebuilding them first. (I have broke so much stuff over the years, I cant always keep it straight either) That being said, with a less agressive profile like most street roller grinds are, I wouldnt hesitate to use a solid roller on the street.
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 9533
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 05-09-2002 10:43 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Dad Vishus:
As for you guys that think hydraulic cams crap out at 6K rpm, I don't buy that. I had a 56 Chebbie years ago with a stock 350 HP 327 hydraulic cam and stock lifters.
I have always believed that cam profile has as much to do with valve float as lifter type does.
DadV,
That's cool but we were talking about Hydro Roller cams, not hydro flat tappet cams. The hydraulic rollers in 5.0's are real heavy (logs) and don't do well at high rpms.
SteveW
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bifs66
Gearhead Posts: 286
From: Maryland
Registered: Apr 2000
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posted 05-09-2002 11:13 PM
I have a solid roller in the 66 Fastback's 342" stroker. I'm a week away from finally driving this thing (after 13 years); so I can't attest to its durability in a street engine yet. The thing that worries me is the required bronze distributor gear. I guess I'll take the distributor out after a few thousand miles and check for wear.------------------
Bernie Frank
66 Fastback restomod project
85 GT (preserved)
82 GT (original)
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bluestreek
Gearhead Posts: 1724
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 05-09-2002 11:43 PM
quote:
Originally posted by kid vishus:
That being said, with a less agressive profile like most street roller grinds are, I wouldnt hesitate to use a solid roller on the street.
Thanks for clearing that up. My setup is a not-so agressive XE solid roller grind with 230/236 duration @.050, .589/602 lift and doesn't require anything special except good valve springs, pushrods and roller rockers. I'm expecting it to easily run 13.0 in street brackets, without pushing the limits, but occasionally make a Vette show respect to Henry FORD!! ...
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chips67
Gearhead Posts: 663
From: louisville, ky, usa
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 05-09-2002 11:47 PM
will check with loran at kintner and see where they shift and what cams they are using with their renegade cars. ------------------
67 coupe, 650dp and rpm intake on 5.0 with afr 165 heads, 4 speed, 4.11's.....best so far is [email protected] in 1/8 mile with 1.79 60ft. time.
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bluestreek
Gearhead Posts: 1724
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 05-09-2002 11:47 PM
quote:
Originally posted by bifs66:
I have a solid roller in the 66 Fastback's 342" stroker. I'm a week away from finally driving this thing (after 13 years); so I can't attest to its durability in a street engine yet. The thing that worries me is the required bronze distributor gear. I guess I'll take the distributor out after a few thousand miles and check for wear.
Bernie,
My '66 has been in restomod for only 6 months and I'm already losing my patience!!
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 27499
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 05-10-2002 08:34 AM
Uh DV.......you didn't by any chance have that tach of yours set in the 4 cylinder mode did you???????
8300 out of low gear and shifted at 8000 RPM.
------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator/ non 65-66 Mustang owner sensitivity co-ordinator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
US Class Nationals link
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bluestreek
Gearhead Posts: 1724
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 05-10-2002 09:28 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Dad Vishus:
As for you guys that think hydraulic cams crap out at 6K rpm, I don't buy that. I had a 56 Chebbie years ago with a stock 350 HP 327 hydraulic cam and stock lifters. It was a crate motor with FI heads and high rise aluminum stock intake and a 750 DP. With 456 gears and a Muncie 4 speed I shifted out of 1st at 8300 and at 8000 out of 2nd and 3rd. There was no valve float or lifter pump up.
I have to admit that 8000+ rpms from a stock hydro stick IS amazing. 
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Dad Vishus
Gearhead Posts: 1064
From: Moscow, Iowa, USA
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 05-10-2002 09:34 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
Uh DV.......you didn't by any chance have that tach of yours set in the 4 cylinder mode did you???????
8300 out of low gear and shifted at 8000 RPM.
Absolutely not. That combo was the quickest stoplight to stoplight car around. 8300 in first gear came so quick you couldn't believe it. Keep in mind those were the days when 110 octane Shell premium was 34 cents a gallon. The 327 was the last good motor Chebby made, in my humble opinion. Thats why I drive Fords today. I had loads o fun with that car. Beat up on Daddy bought supercars everytime. Roadrunners, 396 Chevelles, didn't matter. It did run out of steam after the finish line, but that was OK. That was the one GM product I wish I'd kept.
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 27499
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 05-10-2002 09:57 AM
Yeah DV, I agree that the 327/350 HP chebbie was one of the all time greats , but c'mon......8000 RPM with OEM style juice lifters??? The ceramic Schubeck equipped NHRA/IHRA stocker guys with todays square lobe cams can't do that! ------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator/ non 65-66 Mustang owner sensitivity co-ordinator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
US Class Nationals link
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Dad Vishus
Gearhead Posts: 1064
From: Moscow, Iowa, USA
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 05-10-2002 11:21 AM
I can't explain why that motor ran so hard. I actually bought the car from one of my best friends who had it built. All I know is that it was one screamin SOB. As far as I ever knew, it was all GM parts, but you never know. It could have had aftermarket lifters in it. I'm sure that the cam was the 350 horse 327 one. It was not real radical, but had a nice lope at idle. It also had one of those old sets of Hedman tri-y headers. Those seemed to work pretty well also.Don't know for sure what ever happened to that car. I ended up selling it back to the guy I bought it from and I lost track of it after that. This was all happening when Kid was very small. [This message has been edited by Dad Vishus (edited 05-10-2002).]
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fastbackRb
Gearhead Posts: 100
From: Columbus,Ga.
Registered: May 2002
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posted 05-10-2002 11:12 PM
I thought valve springs determined valve floa t regarless of what kind of shaft?------------------
70 fastback cleveland 5.80's@117
69 cougar elimnator b 02
84 droptop 5.0
86 hatchback 289
92 explorer
97 f350 dullie
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67Coupster
Gearhead Posts: 189
From: Fortson, GA, USA
Registered: Oct 2001
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posted 05-11-2002 06:59 AM
quote:
Originally posted by chips67:
thats what i keep hearing. i know youve heard of the NMRA. there is a class in the nmra called "renegade". have been told by at least 3 guys from kintner motorsports (sellersburg i.n.) that they do run hyd. rollers in their cars (which run in the 9's on spray i believe) and that the cams they use are much bigger than mine. if you ever get a subscription to RACE PAGES you will often see their cars featured. its hard to decipher all this conflicting information.
Chips, I have a friend of mine that runs in Renegage at the FFW events. He told me that they run some type of modified hyd roller lifter to get those kind of rpms. They are all kind of hush about it. There was a thread on it on the Hardcore50 site not to long ago. Some of them are turning close to 8K rpm, I don't know how, but they're knocking on the 8 sec zone in the quarter mile. ------------------
James
67 Coupe
393W, AFR 185, 4 Speed, 4.11 9 inch
7.09 @ 97MPH 1/8
1.55 60'
'66 Fairlane 500XL
Daily Driver
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chips67
Gearhead Posts: 663
From: louisville, ky, usa
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 05-11-2002 02:35 PM
james, thats what i thought. im sure they run hyd. rollers but everybody on this site (and various circles) almost swears they crap out at 6k. somebody tell competition cams (and others) to quit wasting their time with hyd. roller cams like the 260-280's xe cams. those cams are way beyond the potential of the lifters. dont believe any of the performance articles written in mustang monthly. tell those guys to stick with date codes and paint marks.------------------
67 coupe, 650dp and rpm intake on 5.0 with afr 165 heads, 4 speed, 4.11's.....best so far is [email protected] in 1/8 mile with 1.79 60ft. time.
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Mpcoluv
Gearhead Posts: 1341
From: Charlotte NC usa
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 05-12-2002 04:33 PM
quote:
Originally posted by chips67:
james, thats what i thought. im sure they run hyd. rollers but everybody on this site (and various circles) almost swears they crap out at 6k. somebody tell competition cams (and others) to quit wasting their time with hyd. roller cams like the 260-280's xe cams. those cams are way beyond the potential of the lifters. dont believe any of the performance articles written in mustang monthly. tell those guys to stick with date codes and paint marks.
A friend with lots of Dyno experience was telling me that Crower used to make a set of "blueprinted" ford OEM style hyd roller lifters that were good for 7200 RPM. Unfortunately they are no longer made.
The problem (I always thought it was the weight of the lifter) he says is sloppy tolerences from the manufacturer.
I have also heard good things about the $$$ crane link bar style hyd rollers, but you might as well run a solid roller when you spend that much money.
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Daniel Jones
Gearhead Posts: 898
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: Aug 99
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posted 05-12-2002 06:31 PM
> im sure they run hyd. rollers but everybody on this site (and various
> circles) almost swears they crap out at 6k. somebody tell competition
> cams (and others) to quit wasting their time with hyd. roller cams
> like the 260-280's xe cams. those cams are way beyond the potential
> of the lifters. A friend of mine runs the stock Ford hydraulic roller lifters and
doesn't get valve float until 7800 RPM with his AFM-11 hydraulic
roller cam. I have no idea what compromises are made to the lobe
geometry to get that sort of RPM byt he's making pretty decent
power for an EFI 5.0L: 402.8 RWHP at 6500 RPM. You can see the
dyno sheets at: http://www.the-arnolds.net/Cobra/ Click on recent
updates. Dan Jones
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 27499
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 05-13-2002 10:11 AM
We use and sell "special" Sherman and Schubeck hydraulic roller lifters that will withstand 7000RPM +. They are not a true hydraulic lifter. They are SOP in all forms of limited and or restricted racing that requires a hydralic roller lifter. They are about as hydraulic as the PRO series Crane PRO stock lifters in MM's 289. ------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator/ non 65-66 Mustang owner sensitivity co-ordinator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
US Class Nationals link
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Daniel Jones
Gearhead Posts: 898
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: Aug 99
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posted 05-13-2002 12:17 PM
Marc's 7800 RPM was done with stock Ford hydraulic roller lifters. He's looking to go with more duration on the next cam so we'll see how that works.Dan Jones
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chips67
Gearhead Posts: 663
From: louisville, ky, usa
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 05-13-2002 08:51 PM
alex, are those sherman lifters still available/streetable? how will they work with say a 282xe cam?------------------
67 coupe, 650dp and rpm intake on 5.0 with afr 165 heads, 4 speed, 4.11's.....best so far is [email protected] in 1/8 mile with 1.79 60ft. time.
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Butch Jennings
Gearhead Posts: 633
From: No. California
Registered: Apr 2000
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posted 05-13-2002 09:41 PM
Chip, you better sit down when you see/hear the price on those! LOL!!! ------------------
Butch
460 powered 1967 Comet Cyclone
10.271 @ 130.231
Butcher's Home Page
"Friends don't let friends drive Chevys"
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