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Author
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Topic: Hard Bloc short fill in a streeter?
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V8 Thumper
Gearhead Posts: 2991
From: Orange, Ca. United States of America
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 04-23-2002 12:30 PM
   
289 block .040 over, 333 ci (3.250"). Does the short fill pose overheating problems, and for a >6500 RPM s/s motor is it even necessary?
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Butch Jennings
Gearhead Posts: 534
From: California
Registered: Apr 2000
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posted 04-23-2002 03:29 PM
I wouldn't pour rock in a streeter, I don't think it would be necessary with a short stroke and 6500. ------------------
Butch
460 powered 1967 Comet Cyclone
10.271 @ 130.069
Butcher's Home Page
"Friends don't let friends drive Chevys"
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Rustang
Gearhead Posts: 403
From: Clarion PA
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 04-23-2002 05:53 PM
I'd have to agree with Butch. I've talked to guys running partially filled (to the bottom of the block's water ports) and running successfully on the street. Most recommend the addition of an oil cooler. If you're worried about the block being .040 over I'd fuhgedaboutit! I think Alex says .070 can be had on a 302 block. My opinion is the biggest thing you need to worry about in a 302 block is the main webs! And only if you're runnin' big r's and up over maybe 500hp or so. ------------------
'68 mustang 351 clevor- 10.92@124
'67 Stang, 351W -11.18@118
'69 351C Torino-14.90@100
'78 Pickup 351W-15.56@88
'79 Pickup 460 ET=??
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n2oMike
Gearhead Posts: 1367
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 04-23-2002 06:17 PM
I've also read that water temperatures aren't all that much affected, but oil temps tend to rise. I was thinking about running Hard Block in the engine I'll be putting in the mustang this summer... It's just a 302 (Mexican block), and will be spinning around 7200 rpm on the bottle. My current engine was stressing the block to it's limits, so any way to strengthen it would help. The last engine was not filled, and did not have a girdle... just ARP main studs and a prayer, to help the stock block, crank and rods stay intact and in their places. I'm not sure if the main girdles are just a gimmick, or if they are actually effective... I was thinking about going with one, along with a partial fill. Any advice or opinions on a girdle? As for the fill, I was going to clean the water passages with Muratic acid and scrub it really well, then torque the mains and heads while it cured... and do it all before the machine work on the block was done. As for the filling, should I let the block sit in it's regular position while it's being filled, or rotate the block to get each deck level with the ground before filling? I guess this way, you'd have to do one side, let it set up, then do the other... Is an oil cooler really going to be needed if good synthetic oil is used, and it only sees street and strip duty? Thanks! ------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220
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Rustang
Gearhead Posts: 403
From: Clarion PA
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 04-23-2002 06:48 PM
Mike
Let me know if you find out any proof that those girdles work because I've been wondering the same thing. Ever since I broke my crank and noticed the chatter marks where the main caps seat on the block I've been wondering what to do. Granted, the chatter marks may have happened after the crank let loose, but I know people who have seen this on motors during routine tear down (My 351W bottom end was stock too with the exception of ARP studs). I've been looking at 4 bolt splayed bolt caps for my windsor but I don't know if that's an option for a 302. Pro-Gram engineering lists a heavy 2-bolt cap for the 302:
http://pro-gram.com/catalog/catalog.cgi?category=CENTER_MAIN_CAPS&cart_id=6326426.18425&store=program.setup
I've heard good about their stuff, but I've also heard their into the chinese stuff now so I'd ask about it if you call them.
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Butch Jennings
Gearhead Posts: 534
From: California
Registered: Apr 2000
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posted 04-23-2002 07:06 PM
I would think that the main girdle would have to help things....I can't see how it could hurt anything. I wouldn't machine the caps as some of them would like you to, I would use parallel ground hardened spacers rather than take any material off the cap....but I haven't used one myself. Mike, I filled a couple of my FE blocks when I ran FE's in the car (I still split the cylinders in both of them). You are absolutely correct, I was able to keep the water at a reasonable temp but the oil was another story....I would say that an oil cooler would be a must and I wouldn't drive it on the street for very long periods of time. I leveled the deck when I poured both of mine and used muratic acid too, we left the top off of the bottle for a few hours and it rusted everything in the shop! I personally doubt I'll pour another block, it didn't seem to cure anything for me. If it's thin enough to break, it's gonna break anyway. ------------------
Butch
460 powered 1967 Comet Cyclone
10.271 @ 130.069
Butcher's Home Page
"Friends don't let friends drive Chevys"
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n2oMike
Gearhead Posts: 1367
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 04-23-2002 07:11 PM
Enough pressure will unseat the main caps... then they slam back down into place. This causes the mating surfaces to get all scarred up... and yes, my engine has also suffered from this.I caught it on a routine tear-down. This 'cap bounce' can be caused by a number of things, but the main one is detonation. Excessive rpm without a good balance job can also cause it. Making more power than the block can handle will also do it. I had been using small doses of nitrous (100-150hp) on occasion with pump gas... I stopped that practice pronto! I haven't torn it down to the crank yet to see if it got any worse, but it stayed together for several years afterwards... It's out of the car with the heads off, but I haven't taken the bottom end apart... ARP studs are mandatory if you're pushing around 450-500hp out of a 302 block... even if everything is RIGHT. If you're pushing 500+hp with a 302 and ANYTHING is the least bit off and it goes into detonation... bye-bye engine.  If you want to push major power, the 351W is a MUCH stronger platform with it's thicker webbing, larger main caps with 1/2" bolts and 1/2" head bolts. Good Luck! ------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220 [This message has been edited by n2oMike (edited 04-23-2002).]
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bluestreek
Gearhead Posts: 1086
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 04-23-2002 08:16 PM
The main girdle gets it's strength by hooking all the caps together, much like a the stud girdle hooks all the rocker arm studs together. Remember, it's much harder to stretch all the studs together than to move just one. I have used the both steel and aluminum ones in HD off-road engines and the steel ones are very heavy!! (about 20 lbs) and both do a great job of holding things together on high HP engines. If you can afford the billet aluminum ones, I would highly recommend it to save weight. Like B.J. said, I use the spacers and don't recommend grinding the maincaps. I have never used one in a SBF, but you better believe I will have one in my 331 stroker!!
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Rustang
Gearhead Posts: 403
From: Clarion PA
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 04-23-2002 08:41 PM
quote:
The main girdle gets it's strength by hooking all the caps together, much like a the stud girdle hooks all the rocker arm studs together
The movement you're trying to control for a rocker stud is different than cap movement. The rocker stud is trying to bend so a girdle will prevent that movement. Main cap movement is the caps actually lifting off the block. So the main studs are trying to stretch, not bend. So the main girdle is acting like a bridge. Probably the deeper the cross-section, the better the girdle will be. Most of these things I've seen are relatively thin in that plain, the direction which I would think they need to be the thickest. I'm still skeptical!
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Larry Jennings
Gearhead Posts: 540
From: Redwood City, Ca. USA
Registered: Apr 2000
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posted 04-23-2002 08:50 PM
I disagree with the cap lift therory. I believe in the crank whip line of thinking, during which the crank flexes and rocks the cap front to back seperate from the sadle, if it's big it'll remove the entire main web and bend the rods.------------------
I got this black eye when my wife said shut up and I thought she said get up!
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Rustang
Gearhead Posts: 403
From: Clarion PA
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 04-23-2002 09:28 PM
I guess we're a little off the hard bloc issue! But what the heck, I want to try to understand this cap walk stuff better! Larry, are you saying the caps would bend like a rocker stud, or kinda do a slide/bounce thing fore and aft on the block? I'd think the bearings would show wear on the front and rear edges if the caps were rocking?
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Larry Jennings
Gearhead Posts: 540
From: Redwood City, Ca. USA
Registered: Apr 2000
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posted 04-23-2002 10:04 PM
There's not enough movement to see the activity on the bearings, the whole event is an anomoly much like watching a dog shake off water , a little whip goes through the crank and it moves stuff around as it does. Another line of thinking is the block twists as the pulse of a cylinder firing transfers the energy into the crank and what we're seeing on the parting line of the caps is the twist. I like that one too. And maybe it's some of each of our opinions. Seems like the girdle would help keep the cap on the block in every direction (some better than others) so it wouldn't matter why. I vote they work  . ------------------
I got this black eye when my wife said shut up and I thought she said get up!
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bluestreek
Gearhead Posts: 1086
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 04-23-2002 10:27 PM
I have seen individual caps and webbings break completely off of blocks and the crank break in half, when not using girdles. A block is only as strong as it's weakest point, and if that weak point is in the main caps, studs, or webbing, a main girdle will definately give that weak point a little help by linking all of them together with a common "back bone". If you dont' believe me, saw one side of a ladder off and try to climb up the steps!!
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Fordwiser
Gearhead Posts: 184
From: Metamora, Illinois
Registered: Dec 2000
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posted 04-23-2002 11:09 PM
A friend has a drag race only pinto with a plain two bolt 302 block, with a 347 kit. He pushes it pretty hard, it runs mid to low 10s. IT has a girdle in it, when he pulled it apart this winter he found quite a bit of galling on the caps and saddles. He decided to fill it, hopeing that stiffing the block might cut down on movement. I kind of think if you have a weak block for the power you're making and you tie the main caps together making them rigid it may increase the galling. One thing I've heard from a few different people is, you can't really stop the movement but if you put a very thin layer of antisieze between the caps and the block it cuts down on the galling.Roger
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