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Author Topic:   Alcohol fuel
Butch Jennings
Gearhead

Posts: 534
From: California
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 04-22-2002 12:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Butch Jennings   Click Here to Email Butch Jennings     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi guys,

I know that KV and a few others here run alcohol in their race cars. I've been considering changing over and have a few questions for you guys who run it week in, week out.


1) How much do you pay for it and how long can you store it?


2) What is your between race maintenance ritual consist of? If the car is gonna sit for a week, a month or the winter?


3) How much does the top lube help with the corrosion factor? Also, who's top lube do you use?


4) How much of a power or ET change can I expect? I know it is more consistent but how much faster is it?


5) I have an alcohol compatible 440 gph pump and a bypassing regulator in the car now, will my rubber -10 hose be ok or will the fuel cause me problems there? I have an aluminum hardline for the return line, is that gonna cause me problems corroding too?


6) Is there anything else I need to change (besides the carb) to convert? I'm sure my fuel pump and regulator are both up to the task.


7) Sorry, one more question, does alcohol like a tighter lobe separation than gas?


Sorry to be so long winded, I just want some real world answers. I've read a lot of stuff but want to sift through the BS.


Thanks guys.

------------------
Butch
460 powered 1967 Comet Cyclone
10.271 @ 130.069
Butcher's Home Page
"Friends don't let friends drive Chevys"

[This message has been edited by Butch Jennings (edited 04-22-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Butch Jennings (edited 04-22-2002).]

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Larry Jennings
Gearhead

Posts: 540
From: Redwood City, Ca. USA
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 04-22-2002 02:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Larry Jennings   Click Here to Email Larry Jennings     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Alright Butcher! Go ahead an convert to akahual and leave the n2o system on it so we can use propane as the enrichment fuel, then we just put a splash of color, say 90% and you'll either fly or see your parts fly LOL!

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 3894
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 04-22-2002 05:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
1. $2.00 a gallon. Plus as long as the container is airtight, I think it can be stored quite awhile. I store mine over the winter all the time and never have any problems with it.

2. When it sits for a week, I dont do anything I didnt do on gas. Pull the breathers is all. For a month I would consider draining the carb, any longer than that and I would drain the cell also.

3. I use Klotz Techno-Plate, it's a synthetic top lube. It seems to help out especially for the electric pump. (plus it smells alot better when it burns than the stuff Jegs or Summit selss does)

4. When I switched on my little motor 2 years ago, the last pass on gas was 11.26, i changed carbs, and bumped the timing up to 38* from 36, and the first pass on alcohol was 10.78. I run a fairly cold plug so it wasnt necessary for me to change them.
Generally they figure a 5% increase in power is pretty normal. A little more if the motor isnt very efficient, (like my little motor) and a touch less for an efficient motor.

5. I'm not sure about the rubber hose. I have steel braided -10 on mine, but I think it still has a rubber center. If the aluminum line has been hard anodized it wont hurt it a bit.

6. Depending on your plug heat range, I would go one step colder than you normally run on gas, (it seems to work for me and thats what the Engine shop recommends). Plus, at least my motors, like more timing on alcohol than on gas, but all engines are diferrent so some experimenting would bne in order there.

7.I have always ran the same camshaft profiles as on gas and they seem to work real well, but other than that, I have no idea.

PS, a buddy was talking about spraying his toilet powered chebby and the nitrous company he was talking to (Top Gun) said it would work real well (alcohol is naturally detonation resistant), but to use a small tank with racing fuel to enrichin it.

[This message has been edited by kid vishus (edited 04-22-2002).]

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Dusty Kiser
Gearhead

Posts: 122
From: Bethel,Oh USA
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 04-22-2002 07:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dusty Kiser   Click Here to Email Dusty Kiser     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Butch Jennings:
Hi guys,

I know that KV and a few others here run alcohol in their race cars. I've been considering changing over and have a few questions for you guys who run it week in, week out.


1) How much do you pay for it and how long can you store it?


2) What is your between race maintenance ritual consist of? If the car is gonna sit for a week, a month or the winter?


3) How much does the top lube help with the corrosion factor? Also, who's top lube do you use?


4) How much of a power or ET change can I expect? I know it is more consistent but how much faster is it?


5) I have an alcohol compatible 440 gph pump and a bypassing regulator in the car now, will my rubber -10 hose be ok or will the fuel cause me problems there? I have an aluminum hardline for the return line, is that gonna cause me problems corroding too?


6) Is there anything else I need to change (besides the carb) to convert? I'm sure my fuel pump and regulator are both up to the task.


7) Sorry, one more question, does alcohol like a tighter lobe separation than gas?


Sorry to be so long winded, I just want some real world answers. I've read a lot of stuff but want to sift through the BS.


Thanks guys.



Butch, during my years of round trackin' we were a little more PM orieted than the Kid. As you've gleaned, Alky has an affinity for water and gets corrosive. Even with a top lube in it, it's still very corrosive. Keep your containers air tight, and try not to leave much fuel in the tank for any extended period. Don't leave fuel in the carb(s) at all. I flush them out with gasoline after a race. Rolling into a corner at 130mph and have a throttle hang open is no fun. Many fuel suppliers sell Alky with an ounce of deqummed castor oil per gallon to lube pumps, valves etc. but, it still isn't stable for long. Klotz makes some excellent products that will work well with Alky. Keep in mind that methanol has less BTU's than gasoline. It can contribute to better horsepower because it has an oxygen atom in the molecule and will support more combustion. It takes nearly twice as much ALky to produce the same BTU's. In a good engine it can be worth ten percent more power. In a lesser engine you will see less gain for the simple reason, the greater volume of fuel displaces more air in the ports. For example, a 351c 4V may see 10 percent whereas a 350 Chev or 351 windsor may only see 7 percent. It doesn't like cold weather much, but will run cooler in hot weather so long as you don't lean it out. It's cheaper than racing gas, but you'll burn more , have to carry more on-board and it's a little more work. But a race car is all work anyway right? Good luck.

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jsracingbbf
Gearhead

Posts: 1217
From: Batesville,MS. , U.S.A.
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 04-22-2002 11:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jsracingbbf   Click Here to Email jsracingbbf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Butch,
I pay 90 bucks for a 55 gallon drum of VP.
I store it indefinately as long as lid is tight because alky is Hydroscopic ( did I spell that right? ) means it draws water from the air, so keep the lid tight problem solved.
Between race ritual? umm well I do like Kid I pull the breather caps and also drain the catch can for condensate. not much
anotherwords.
top lube- I use power plus and I add some of that grape or water melon scent, drive the guys in the other lane crazy LOL Best race I ever one was against a friend of mine who commented he couldn't see the tree for the tears in his eyes from my motor, I commented that I loved it when a plan came together like that! I like the top lube I have no corrosion problems everyone said I would have with Alky.

How much ET depends on your car's compression. Allot of folks say a low compression car won't run on Alky, this is false, Alky just RESPONDS better to more compression. You get more use of the BTU's availble. As far as lines go I would run all AN lines but thats just my opinion, it may not hurt your lines if you run top lube I don't know. I wouldn't even attempt to start a cam discusion on my little knowledge, I just run what I know works on my motor, anotherwords I copied some one else's set up.
Put it on Alky i think You'll like the bottom end torque.
Jerry

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Butch Jennings
Gearhead

Posts: 534
From: California
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 04-23-2002 11:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Butch Jennings   Click Here to Email Butch Jennings     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Thanks guys,

Jerry, I guess when I said rubber -10 line that I gave the wrong impression. Every line on my car (except the radiator hoses) is a steel braided AN hose, they are all rubber inside of the braid, that's where my concern is. The return line I just installed is an aluminum hard line, I'm not sure if it's anodized like KV said or not.

The engine is 13.5:1 compression, so I figured it would like alky. I have a cam in it now that's on a 112 center because I cammed it with nitrous in mind, I'm curious if the alky would prefer something tighter...like a 106 or 108 center.

I think I'm going to make the switch in the next couple of months. Thanks for all the tips guys.

------------------
Butch
460 powered 1967 Comet Cyclone
10.271 @ 130.069
Butcher's Home Page
"Friends don't let friends drive Chevys"

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jsracingbbf
Gearhead

Posts: 1217
From: Batesville,MS. , U.S.A.
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 04-23-2002 11:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jsracingbbf   Click Here to Email jsracingbbf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Butch, let us know what it runs. I would guess 9.75 I'm no expert at this I just wanted to guess. Let me know how close it is. Good luck and I think a Hat would look awesome on the COMET or maybe some Hillborn Stacks? heck yeah!
Jerry

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Butch Jennings
Gearhead

Posts: 534
From: California
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 04-24-2002 10:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Butch Jennings   Click Here to Email Butch Jennings     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

I'd be happier than a pig in slop if it went 9.75 on alky....I'll definately keep you guys posted, I'm gonna take it out and play with it on gas some next month. I'll be able to do a pretty good back to back comparison of the two once I get my hands on a carb.

Should I take the foam out of the fuel cell? I don't have a clue what it's made of....it's a JAZ cell.

------------------
Butch
460 powered 1967 Comet Cyclone
10.271 @ 130.069
Butcher's Home Page
"Friends don't let friends drive Chevys"

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 3894
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 04-24-2002 03:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Butch Jennings:

Should I take the foam out of the fuel cell? I don't have a clue what it's made of....it's a JAZ cell.



I was told once foam had gas in it, that alcohol would ruin it (comes apart in little pieces and plugs up filters real quickly), and vice versa. I have always pulled the foam out, even when it was new. If I knew for certain, that the car would never see gas again, I would buy some new foam and put it back in, but there is still that possibility it will get gas in it again and I dont want to keep having to take the foam out.

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Butch Jennings
Gearhead

Posts: 534
From: California
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 04-24-2002 08:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Butch Jennings   Click Here to Email Butch Jennings     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Thanks KV, I had heard of people having trouble with the foam, I was curious what you guys had experienced.


One more question (for now anyway) , are the black Moroso notched floats compatible with alky? If not, what do you guys use for a notched float?

I found a VP distributer that will sell to me direct and deliver 30 gallon drums to my house for $2.50 a gallon. Seems a little steep to me but my only other local option so far is a motorcycle/boat dealer in town who carries it in 5 gallon cans for almost $4.00 a gallon!!! He said he goes to Ukiah twice a month and will drop a drum off to me on that run if I get my order in before his run. He says he carries a top lube made by VP too, anything good or bad with their top lube? I've always had very good success with VP products.

------------------
Butch
460 powered 1967 Comet Cyclone
10.271 @ 130.069
Butcher's Home Page
"Friends don't let friends drive Chevys"

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 3894
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 04-24-2002 09:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have the bowl extensions so I dont have clearanced floats.

I have never heard anything good about VP's top lube. I know their fuel is good, but I have heard bad stuff about their top lube leaving a chalky residue in stuff and pluggin them up (like filters and carb passages).

I really like the Klotz top lube. The Power Plus sold thru Jegs and Summit is also good, (but I think it stinks when it burns)

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jsracingbbf
Gearhead

Posts: 1217
From: Batesville,MS. , U.S.A.
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 04-25-2002 12:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jsracingbbf   Click Here to Email jsracingbbf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
the foam WILL come apart. I fought this for three weeks when I first went to ALky, no one told me. I thought the C & S specialties holley 950 was junk, but it was the itty bitty pieces of fuel cell foam. The 950 turned out to be the best Carb I ever owned. Butch, I thought you were going to injection? What's stopping you from going that route? I found cost is almost the same by the time you get all the stuff bought.
Jerry

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Butch Jennings
Gearhead

Posts: 534
From: California
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 04-25-2002 02:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Butch Jennings   Click Here to Email Butch Jennings     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

I'm not going to injection at the present time because I can bolt a carb on it and pull the foam and it's a runner. If I could do an injection system for the price of a carb I'd be all over it.

------------------
Butch
460 powered 1967 Comet Cyclone
10.271 @ 130.069
Butcher's Home Page
"Friends don't let friends drive Chevys"

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steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 5659
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 05-03-2002 05:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Butch,

Found this for you,

http://www.dragraceresults.com/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=004641


SteveW

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 3894
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 05-03-2002 05:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I cant remember if Charles Davis or the Rupert they always talk about on DRR that a guy out of Des Moines had a problem with. He got a carb form them, some high dollar piece, around $1200 for the carb alone, and it didnt work right. So they pulled the motor and tried to dyno it. I dont know the exact details, but I do know when they bolted my buddy's 1050 gas Dominator on the motor, it picked up 60 hp. And this alchy carb was "supposed" to flow around 1000 cfm. And when they called the guy to tell him what his carb was doing, all he wanted to do was argue about it, and say it wasnt his carbs fault.

(by the way, it was a sbc, and with my buddys carb, it made 790 hp. I just might have to borrow that carb sometime and see how well it would work on my motor.)

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Butch Jennings
Gearhead

Posts: 534
From: California
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 05-03-2002 10:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Butch Jennings   Click Here to Email Butch Jennings     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Thanks Steve,

I was thinking I might have my 1050 converted but I currently have a like new box stock Holley 1050 alcohol carb lined up to buy. If the deal doesn't fall through, I'll have my 9375 gas 1050 to sell after the car is running and "happy" on alky....I might come close to breaking even if it all works out

------------------
Butch
460 powered 1967 Comet Cyclone
10.271 @ 130.069
Butcher's Home Page
"Friends don't let friends drive Chevys"

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steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 5659
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 05-03-2002 10:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Butch,

Very cool! Do you have extra fuel/gas for tomorrow? I gotta see if I have enough, they probably won't be selling it tomorrow at Sac.

SteveW

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Butch Jennings
Gearhead

Posts: 534
From: California
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 05-04-2002 12:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Butch Jennings   Click Here to Email Butch Jennings     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

I've only got a 5 gal jug and a full cell, I'll see if I can get another jug filled on my way out of town. There's a gas station up here that sells race gas, they used to sell Trick but I think they're selling 76(110) now.

------------------
Butch
460 powered 1967 Comet Cyclone
10.271 @ 130.069
Butcher's Home Page
"Friends don't let friends drive Chevys"

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