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Author Topic:   A challenge- 400hp 351C
Kyle
Gearhead

Posts: 430
From: Sumner, WA
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 04-08-2002 12:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kyle   Click Here to Email Kyle     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Easy you say? The restrictions: no strokers, no power adders, stock valve sized 2V heads, using hyd. lifters. I am going to build this motor for a 70 Mach 1 for street use. My goal is a 400hp 351C-2V that will run on pump gas and will be easy on parts. Gotta whip those pesky cameros into shape. I have an FMX or C6 tranny to choose from, so it will be an automatic. How can I get to my goal? Or am I just dreaming?

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'69Stang
Gearhead

Posts: 205
From: Detroit, MI USA
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 04-08-2002 01:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for '69Stang   Click Here to Email '69Stang     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I definitely think your goal is reachable, and you'll have a lot of eductaed people chime in on this and give you good advice. It seems the most important factors are going to be the same old suspects; namely the pieces that control the air flow process. The more air you can flow and process through an engine the more horsepower you will make so the carb/intake, cylinder heads and camshaft will probably be the most important parts. Some will talk about exhaust, but with headers and 2.5"+ pipes you'll be fine.

Heads: well, I'm assuming you have the 2V open chamber heads and my advice their is to send them to a respectable head shop to get them ported, and have the bowls and chambers cleaned up. Also get the heads milled and get some flat top pistons so that you can get around 10:1 compression w/93 octane gas. Get the hardware to match the cam.

Cam: looks like you are limiting yourself here. If you have a flat tappet hydraulic you can definitely make more than 400hp, but you may have some driveability issues since a bigger cam will be necessary. Call a cam grinder and tell them your entire set up, ask Moneymaker on this forum - I'm sure he'll respond to this post.

Intake - for 400hp probably a Weiand xcellerator, 750 Holley DP.

I don't think you "are dreaming", the 2v Cleveland heads are definitely good performers, just clean them up to so that they can flow enough to hit your performance level and support them with parts that don't act as an air "bottleneck". Slap some 3.91 or 4.11 gears in it and watch those Camaros from your rear view mirror.

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 6590
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 04-08-2002 04:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ok, here's my 2 cents worth. For a true 400 hp, I believe the easiest way to achieve that is going to be using a solid flat tappet cam, and ported 2v heads that have bigger intake valves installed. Ferrea makes a nice 2.10 stainless undercut valve that is a nice compromise between the stock 2v size and 4v size.

Flat top pistons in a zero decked block with heads that have been shaved around .030 should give a good compression ratio that will still run on pump gas. A solid cam with around 235-240 @ .050 on the int, with a LSA around 106-108, a good single plane intake, a 750 DP Holley, a 3500 convertor, and a 4.11 gear and it should run pretty good. Also, for the transmission choices, I would sell both of those and buy a c4.

But, this is all just my opinion

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 2831
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 04-08-2002 06:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What KV said...

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

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Daniel Jones
Gearhead

Posts: 898
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: Aug 99

posted 04-08-2002 06:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daniel Jones   Click Here to Email Daniel Jones     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
>A challenge: 400hp 351C. Easy you say? The restrictions: no strokers, no
>power adders, stock valve sized 2V heads, using hyd. lifters. I am going to
>build this motor for a 70 Mach 1 for street use. My goal is a 400hp 351C-2V
>that will run on pump gas and will be easy on parts. Gotta whip those pesky
>cameros into shape. I have an FMX or C6 tranny to choose from, so it will be
>an automatic. How can I get to my goal? Or am I just dreaming?

A very achievable goal. I recently helped a guy in the Pantera club spec out
a rebuild on his 351C. He wasn't really looking for 400 HP. He just wanted
something with good low end torque and throttle response. Here's the results
from the engine dyno session:

lb-ft hp

4000 413 314
4250 401 325
4500 386 331
4750 382 346
5000 380 362
5250 357 357
5500 344 361
5750 341 374
6000 275 314
6250 272 323

Here's the build:
Holley 650 (too small)
Edelbrock Performer 2V
Aussie 2V heads, 2.125"/1.65" one piece stainless valves, bowl ported
shot-peened stock rods with ARP rod bolts
Crane 1.73:1 roller rockers
4 bolt main block
Weisco 0.020 over flat top pistons
MSD Pro Billet distributor
Taylor wires
Comp CCA-323084 hydraulic flat tappet cam 222/226 @ 0.050" lift,
0.531"/0.531" lift, LSA 110

I tried to talk him into a Weiand Xcelerator 2V and a bigger carb but he
was only interested in torque. With the Weiand single plane, a better
carb and a windage tray, he'd be over 400 HP with torque to match. In
a Pantera, it'll pull 20+ MPG on the highway too.

I put together a similar package for another Pantera buddy. His Pantera
had a basically stock open chamber 2V engine with Holley Street Dominator
(small port economy type single plane) and Pantera GTS headers and he was
not happy with its performance. He wanted something that would pull from
2000 to 6000 RPM with some idle lope. I talked him into:

ported Aussie 2V heads
Weiand Xcelerator 2V intake
Holley 700D (smaller than I recommended but he already had it)
Harland Sharp 1.73:1 roller rockers (already had on hand)
flat top pistons
Comp 282S solid lifter flat tappet cam (part # 32-238-4)
236/236 @ 0.050" lift, 0.570"/0.570" lift (minus 0.022 lash), LSA 110
windage tray
MSD 6AL ignition

Charlie didn't put the engine on the dyno but is very happy with the
combo. Should be comfortably over 400HP and still be very streetable,
at least in a 5 speed Pantera.

If your budget will withstand the $250 to $300 core charge for a set of
Aussie closed chamber 2V heads, use them. They will permit you to run
more compression on pump gas. Use flat top pistons (KB 179 or TRW L2379F)
if you pick the Aussie 2V heads.

If you stick with open chamber heads, your goal is still achievable but
you'll need to pay more attention to the timing, fuel, and cam (more total
overlap) to keep from pinging. Find a set of real 351C-2V heads. They
have a better exhaust port than the usual 351M/400 heads. With open chamber
heads, you can run a flat top piston and mill the block and heads to get the
compression up or run a small dome KB (KB149) or TRW (L2348F) piston. Be
aware that TRW makes two different domed pistons. L2408F is a domed piston
designed for open chamber heads only and use the thinner 1/16", 1/16" and
1/8" inch race rings. Compression ratio with 76.2 cc heads would be up
around 11.45:1. That's too much for pump gas. The L2348F pistons have a
smaller dome meant to clear the tighter closed chamber combuston chambers
but, of course, they can also be used on open chamber heads. The L2348F
will yield a bit over 10:1 compression with a 76cc head, about as much as
you want to run on pump gas with open chamber heads. The KB149's will give
a bit more compression, 10.5:1 or so.

Given that you want to stay with a hydraulic falt tappet cam, I'd suggest
something like an Erson 232 degrees @ 0.545", 108 LSA, with variable
duration lifters (Rhoads, Crower, Crane, etc.), a Weiand Xcelerator 2V
intake, as tall a 4 hole spacer as will fit, roller rockers, MPG Services
windage tray, MSD 6AL ignition, 2.1"/1.65" valves (bowl ported and port
matched), 1 3/4" diameter headers into a 3" dual exhaust with cross-over
pipe, 700 to 750 CFM carb (the old 735 Holley off a 428CJ works great on
the street). If you want to run a Boss 429 hood scoop, a variable CFM
Predator (with idle circuit) would be an ideal carb.

Dan Jones

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Mpcoluv
Gearhead

Posts: 1341
From: Charlotte NC usa
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 04-08-2002 07:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mpcoluv   Click Here to Email Mpcoluv     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Daniel Jones:
> If you want to run a Boss 429 hood scoop, a variable CFM
Predator (with idle circuit) would be an ideal carb.

Dan Jones


Hey don't give away all the secrets....
BTW in my application the idle circuit is worthless. Runs fine with the air bleed needle closed.

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kwazykat
Moderator

Posts: 7627
From: ...a wonderful place to be.... orange county... NC!!!! M&M member #92 .... a blue-oval GRRL-deluxe.....
Registered: Jun 99

posted 04-08-2002 08:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kwazykat   Click Here to Email kwazykat     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
oops

wrong username

kv

[This message has been edited by kwazykat (edited 04-08-2002).]

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 6590
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 04-08-2002 08:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Milodon also makes a windage tray for front sump pans. It costs $38. I just bought one to put in my race motor.

Also the 2348F piston also uses the smaller ring package.

The "M" heads do have a terrible exhuast port. It can be made better with alot of grinding, but stil not as good as a true 2v C head.


now this is the right username

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Kyle
Gearhead

Posts: 430
From: Sumner, WA
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 04-08-2002 08:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kyle   Click Here to Email Kyle     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm working with an engine from a 73 cougar. It has 78,000 origional miles and ran great when pulled. So I assume that these are the true 351C 2V heads. What is the biggest lift figures I can go with before having to flycut pistons? Also, I see alot of reccomendations for 750DP carbs- why a DP and not a vac. sec? This is great info, everyone. Thanks a bunch! Hope others are learning as well.

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 6590
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 04-08-2002 09:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kyle:
. What is the biggest lift figures I can go with before having to flycut pistons?

The cam in my current race motor is .628/.625 lift, using the 2348 pistons, and heads that have been shaved .050, it has plenty of valve to piston clearance. With any kind of "normal" street/strip cam, valve to piston clearance shouldnt be an issue. The only time I ran into valve to piston clearance problems was usoing a zero decked block, the .050 shaved heads, 2408 pistons, and a roller cam that had .650 lift. It was tight, but it cleared (should have had some "adjusting" done, only had about .060 intake valve to piston clearance).

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Daniel Jones
Gearhead

Posts: 898
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: Aug 99

posted 04-09-2002 12:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daniel Jones   Click Here to Email Daniel Jones     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Kid: Can you describe the Milodon tray. Is it like a Boss 302 windage tray or like a 428CJ tray or a mesh or?

Kyle: Large lift is wased on 2V heads. They reach peak lift at a much lower lift than 4V heads.

Dan Jones

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70coupe
Gearhead

Posts: 483
From: Toronto,Ontario,Canada
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 04-09-2002 04:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 70coupe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm interested in the Milodon windage tray as well. Whats the part number? Where did you buy it?
Thanks,
Brian

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Kyle
Gearhead

Posts: 430
From: Sumner, WA
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 04-09-2002 04:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kyle   Click Here to Email Kyle     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The description of the tray says it's a solid louvered piece for front sump. From summitracing.com, the tray: pt#MIL-32220 ($37.95), and the install kit(studs): pt#MIL-81151 ($34.99). I think these pieces will find their way onto this engine.

Ford Racing makes some bolt on roller rockers that don't need guide plates or any machining to use. They are 1.73 ratio and sell for 259.69. Anybody used them? Also, any camshafts from the Crower garage sale list stick out as good to use? The $60 price tag is mighty tempting...

http://www.crower.com/sp/gs_cams.shtml

Thanks for the input!

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 6590
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 04-09-2002 11:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It doesnt have a built in scraper like the MPG try does. I have had really lousey luck when running teh MPG trays, (not anything to do with them, just bad timing). I built 2 motors and used the MPG tray right after they first came out, when they were $89 each, and both motors blew up after 7 passes destroying the trays. I decided after the second failure, that I wasnt going to spend the money on them anymore, although it wasnt the trays fault.

So, I already have one set of the bolts the MPG trays come with and that's how I'm going to mount the Milodon tray.

Kyle,
the solid cam I have in my motor now came from the Crower garage sale. As forthe hydro cams, if they still have them left, the 2 that stand out ot me (that I ouwld use if i was gonna build a street motor and use a hydro) are 15226, and 15264. The problem is, you never know if they still have them or not, and gettin a hold of the guy to order them from is kinda tuff too.
Also, like Dan said, high lift is not needed for the 2v heads. Every flow test I have seen, they all top out around .550 lift.

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clevelandstyle
Gearhead

Posts: 1309
From: central Indiana
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 04-10-2002 01:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for clevelandstyle     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I had trouble with the MPG tray. Last winter when I took the engine apart to freshen it, the tray was laying in the bottom of the oil pan. The welds and the mounting straps broke. I rewelded it myself (much stonger) and refitted it when I assembled the engine. It has stayed together OK, now.

------------------
Ben
Grabber Green '70 Mach I 351C 4V
Robbin Egg Blue '79 Fairmont 351C 4V

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 6590
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 04-11-2002 09:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kid vishus:

So, I already have one set of the bolts the MPG trays come with and that's how I'm going to mount the Milodon tray.


I foud out yesterday that the MIlodon tray will not work wihtout their mounting kit. The MPG bolts sit too low and will not reach the Milodon tray. Oh well, it was worth a shot to try and save some bucks. Now I have to order the Milodon mounting kit.

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timjk
Journeyman

Posts: 57
From:
Registered: Oct 2001

posted 04-13-2002 11:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for timjk   Click Here to Email timjk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
While we're on the subject, I also would like to build a nice running 351C for the street. I have a '72 4 bbl engine and wonder if a set 2bbl heads would be better in the way of low to mid range operation?

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Kyle
Gearhead

Posts: 430
From: Sumner, WA
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 04-21-2002 07:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kyle   Click Here to Email Kyle     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I gotta dig this thread up again. I was talking to another guy about his 351C he built. He expressed his concern on reusing the stock valve spring retainers and locks. What about this idea?

He has a big collection of parts and has offered to sell me whatever I need from it. I see, in his list, a 9" rear, complete w/ 3.50 gears, 28-spline axles, and a trac-lock. It fits a 67-68 mustang, he says. Also a 6AL box, Blaster II coil, and Accel electronic distributor, among other things. He says make him an offer. Well, how much would a 9" rear like that go for, assuming it is in good condition? Accel distributors OK? I have my list of parts and am getting ready to build this motor...

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MattN
Journeyman

Posts: 69
From: Mattoon, IL.
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 04-22-2002 12:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MattN   Click Here to Email MattN     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Do not reuse the stock locks or retainers, or for that matter the stock valves. I did once and when the engine started floating the valves sooner and sooner, I pulled the valve covers to find the locks pulling through the cracked retainers. I was about one pass away from a dropped valve. Do not reuse!

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