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Author Topic:   Tightest piston/head quench?
n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 2831
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 02-05-2002 12:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A buddy of mine had his 460 block milled to get to zero deck... only problem is, they took too much off! The pistons now stick out of the bore 0.012"-0.016". The gasket measures 0.042".

This leaves 0.026"-0.030" clearance. Is it enough?

The engine is a 460 with truck rods and TRW's 'liteweight' flattop pistons. It has a 248/260 solid cam spinning the tach to around 6200rpm.

I've never run one any tighter than around 0.035" This tight quench doesn't seem to leave much room for error. I don't know of a thicker 460 gasket offhand, and I don't really want to go copper. Any ideas?

Thanks!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367

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Rustang
Gearhead

Posts: 821
From: Clarion PA
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 02-05-2002 05:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rustang   Click Here to Email Rustang     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I had a similar situation with my Windsor. When I put it together with .210 dome speed pro pistons and stock rods in an early (9.48 deck) block, the pistons stuck out .015". I called Fel-Pro to see if they had a thicker head gasket. The answer was no...but they had just came out (this was 1989) with a .018" copper shim gasket that I could use with the FelPro "blue" head gasket. Using the shim would put my piston/head at about .040". One thing he said to use was some permatex spray-on copper gasket sealer when assembling.

I was skeptical, but tried it and never had a problem! This motor had over 12:1 compression, used stock head bolts, and made many 11 second passes and is still together today.

On the other hand, I've heard of guys running .020-.030"piston/head, but these same guys also bragged about the pistons "just smackin' the head a little". You'd probably need real tight piston/cylinder wall clearance, and with a big block you'd probably need a little more room for things to "grow" than most small blocks.

Another option would be milling the pistons down to get more clearance.

------------------
'68 mustang 351 clevor- [email protected]
'67 Stang, 351W [email protected]
'69 351C [email protected]
'78 Pickup [email protected]
'79 Pickup 460 ET=??
http://www.rustang-racing.cityslide.com/contents/contents.cfm/712231

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ccode67
Gearhead

Posts: 2995
From: douglasville,ga,usa
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 02-05-2002 07:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ccode67   Click Here to Email ccode67     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I just went through this with my windsor, The local machine shop guru for race motors said he had run as low as .020 (dirt track oval motors that don't live very long anyway) but the pistons would sometimes leave "marks" on the head and the carbon would never cover the areas so it must have been real close, his recommendation was .040 for a street motor and as tight as you dare with a race motor but no less than .026 , hope this helps.

------------------
Stuart MCA #48902
M&M #1091
67 stang 5 speed, soon to be 351W
91 f-150 xlt
98 explorer xlt sohc v-6

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ccode67
Gearhead

Posts: 2995
From: douglasville,ga,usa
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 02-05-2002 07:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ccode67   Click Here to Email ccode67     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I left something out.
Mine was .013 over the deck, .039 gasket for .026 clearance, he said run it, UNTIL we did the compression calculation, came out at 10.97 to 1 , good for a race motor but this is a street car on pump gas, cut the pistons to give .020 in the hole, 9.7 to 1
I didn't want to take the chance of not being able to use pump gas.

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 27499
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 02-05-2002 12:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We run TOny's 5.0 motors (out of the deck) at around .020 with zero problems. I have built very tight 289's with steel rods at similar clearances.
Mike, Victor makes thicker "marine" head gaskets for 460's if you prefer to not have so tight a quench.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
US Class Nationals link

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 2831
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 02-05-2002 07:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, I called Victor. The compression on this engine is going to be pushing 12:1. The Victor rep said the marine gasket was not any thicker, and that it didn't have the steel combustion ring like their race gasket. He didn't recommend it.

I DID find that Felpro makes a Pro-Stock gasket that measures 0.051" thick. It's part #1099. It has 18 head bolt holes, but can be used with standard 10 bolt heads... but the bore measures 4.66" I believe. It's over 1/4" larger than than the bore itself! I thought it sounded a bit extreme. What do you guys think of it?

Thanks!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367

[This message has been edited by n2oMike (edited 02-05-2002).]

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ASTIKHOSSW
Journeyman

Posts: 90
From: UPLAND CA SAN BERNARDINO
Registered: Sep 2000

posted 02-05-2002 08:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ASTIKHOSSW   Click Here to Email ASTIKHOSSW     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
CAN'T YOU JUST PUT OFSET BUSHING IN THE RODS TO LOWER THE ROD LENGTH.I THINK THEY CAN BORE
THE ROD SMALL END AND OFSET THE BUSHING BY THE AMOUNT YOU NEED TO LOWER THE PISTON IN THE HOLE.

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 2831
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 02-05-2002 09:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ASTIKHOSSW:
CAN'T YOU JUST PUT OFSET BUSHING IN THE RODS TO LOWER THE ROD LENGTH.I THINK THEY CAN BORE
THE ROD SMALL END AND OFSET THE BUSHING BY THE AMOUNT YOU NEED TO LOWER THE PISTON IN THE HOLE.

There are plenty of ways to fix the problem... some are just a bit more labor intensive than others. A thicker head gasket would be the easiest, especially since the shortblock is already put together.

A standard 0.042" gasket will PROBABLY work. There's not much room to play with, so a slightly thicker one would be nice insurance. The Felpro #1099 pro-stock gasket mentioned above seems like an interesting alternative.

Thanks in advance for any experiences and insight.

[This message has been edited by n2oMike (edited 02-05-2002).]

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Butch Jennings
Gearhead

Posts: 633
From: No. California
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 02-05-2002 11:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Butch Jennings   Click Here to Email Butch Jennings     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Mike,

I use the Fel-Pro pro stock gasket in my .030 460 (my piston's up out of the hole too). I didn't use it for the extra thickness, in fact I stuck my piston up out of the hole to compensate for the thicker gasket. I used it because it DOES have such a big diameter and I unshrouded my chamber and notched the bore to the gasket diameter....that is worth sustantial flow and power! There's one of Butcher's few speed secrets...lol. I wouldn't be afraid of larger diameter of that gasket, in fact, I'd bust the die grinder back out and use them to my advantage. Just my 2-cents.

------------------
Butch
460 powered 1967 Comet Cyclone
10.271 @ 130.069
Butcher's Home Page
"Friends don't let friends drive Chevys"

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Butch Jennings
Gearhead

Posts: 633
From: No. California
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 02-05-2002 11:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Butch Jennings   Click Here to Email Butch Jennings     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

One more thing, the only real drawback to using that gasket is that they cost around $80.00 apiece! On a budget like mine that is a big deal.

------------------
Butch
460 powered 1967 Comet Cyclone
10.271 @ 130.069
Butcher's Home Page
"Friends don't let friends drive Chevys"

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Just Strokin
Gearhead

Posts: 754
From: Tuscaloosa, Alabama
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 02-06-2002 08:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Just Strokin   Click Here to Email Just Strokin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You can get them from Ford for $85 a pair.

M-6049-E460

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 27499
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 02-06-2002 10:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have some old stock (early 80's) Victorcore "M" series marine head gaskets for FoMoCo's and chebbies. They are all .050 to .055 thick and have the stainless ring around them. I used to do some boat work and still have some marine parts.
They must have made a design change in them over the years Mike before they introduced their racing line. I used to swear by them in all the blower engines I did for boats or cars in the 70's and 80's. Hmmmm? I wonder if they will trade me for updated merchandise?

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
US Class Nationals link

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 2831
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 02-06-2002 11:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, I know someone who might be interested... as long as the price is right.

Let me know how much you want for them.

Thanks!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367

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cpmaverick
Gearhead

Posts: 1666
From: Santa Clarita, CA
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 02-06-2002 12:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cpmaverick   Click Here to Email cpmaverick     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
After block-decking due to warpage, my pistons stick .010 out of the block. Never had any problems.

------------------
-Charlie Ping
1970 Maverick Grabber
[email protected] with AC and overdrive.
http://www.maverickgrabber.com

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bluestreek
Gearhead

Posts: 1724
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 02-07-2002 07:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bluestreek   Click Here to Email bluestreek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Nice quench!!

SCE sells solid copper gaskets that measure .050" and .062" . What's wrong with copper?

BS

[This message has been edited by bluestreek (edited 02-07-2002).]

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