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Author Topic:   Solid vs girly man cams
MrWesson22
Gearhead

Posts: 610
From: Dacula, GA
Registered: Sep 2000

posted 01-31-2002 12:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MrWesson22   Click Here to Email MrWesson22     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
How much more power is a solid cam really worth? I ordered my flat tappet that specs as follows: 282/288 adv dur 244/[email protected] .590/.598 lift 108LSA

I know I couldn't get near that steep of a ramp angle on a hydraulic flat tappet, but I also know a solid cam with the same duration as a hydraulic acts like a smaller cam. How much hp/torque is this cam really worth over a hydraulic designed for the same application? I basically went with the solid for the extra rpm (figured I'd be floating valves at 6500 with hydraulic), extra power throughout, and the cool sound. I just want to see everyone's thoughts here.

------------------
Neal
Member #723
[email protected] AIM: MrWesson22

69 Gulfstream Aqua Grande
351C/Toploader 4sp

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 11493
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-31-2002 01:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A bunch! Probably 20-25 HP and 20 ft lbs of torque. Hydraulic cams by their nature cannot push the lifter and near the speedd required to bang the valve open and closed to make the events happen.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
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V8 Thumper
Gearhead

Posts: 603
From: Orange, Ca. United States of America
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 01-31-2002 06:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper   Click Here to Email V8 Thumper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'll never run a hydro cam again!!!

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 719
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 01-31-2002 08:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm a die-hard solid lifter flat tappet fan. It's all I would think about running in a hotrod street car... (that had any access at all to the rockers)

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367

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65_289
Gearhead

Posts: 396
From:
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 01-31-2002 09:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 65_289   Click Here to Email 65_289     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What about solid roller cams? How much better are they than a hydraulic roller?

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68bbstang
Journeyman

Posts: 18
From:
Registered: Sep 2001

posted 01-31-2002 10:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 68bbstang   Click Here to Email 68bbstang     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You hit the nail on the head with my car. I have adjustable rockers with a hydraulic cam. I don't have to get back in to the rockers after I have them set. Has anyone here had the pleasure of removing Cobra valve covers from a 68 mustang with an FE motor? You pull the upper shock mounts to get to the export brace. That's the EASY part!. Then you have to get to the valve cover bolt at #8 (yes the booster and master cylinder are RIGHT THERE).
All in all, it's TOO much hassle. With an FE, you tend to plan your upgrades more carefully. I plan to add a Performer RPM manifold, but while I'm in there I better upgrade the rocker stands/supports and spacers. Life was so much easier with the small block in my 67 (but not as much fun).

Mike

quote:
Originally posted by n2oMike:
I'm a die-hard solid lifter flat tappet fan. It's all I would think about running in a hotrod street car... (that had any access at all to the rockers)


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bluestreek
Gearhead

Posts: 607
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 01-31-2002 11:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for bluestreek   Click Here to Email bluestreek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What parts are recommended to convert heads from an adjustable flat tappet hydraulic to flat tappet solid cam ? It's been too many years since I have ran a solid cam and lifters and can't remember if anything special is needed in the valvetrain.

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 11493
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-31-2002 02:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Nothing but the cam, lifters, and appropriate valve springs. Quality rocker arms are also a good idea. SOLID CAMS RULE!

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
US Class Nationals link

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65_289
Gearhead

Posts: 396
From:
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 01-31-2002 03:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 65_289   Click Here to Email 65_289     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
Nothing but the cam, lifters, and appropriate valve springs. Quality rocker arms are also a good idea. SOLID CAMS RULE!


And how often are the rocker arms adjusted?


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ProStreet64Falcon
unregistered
posted 01-31-2002 04:21 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
Nothing but the cam, lifters, and appropriate valve springs. Quality rocker arms are also a good idea. SOLID CAMS RULE!


Hold It Alex. It is not that simple. If you have a Cleveland or a 429/460 with the Ped mount Hydralics rockers now. You will have to mill the Peds off and put in screw in Rocker Studs and add adjustable rockers. I can't see any other viable solution. The only other thing I can think of is adjustable push rods. And I would not trust that too much. Please, Correct me if I am wrong.

Rick

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64 Pro-Street Falcon
351 Cleveland 4V
8.21 1/8
70 Plymouth Cuda
440 Magnum
6.72 1/8

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Just Strokin
Gearhead

Posts: 179
From: Tuscaloosa, Alabama
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 01-31-2002 09:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Just Strokin   Click Here to Email Just Strokin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Or use Crane Cam's Adjustable Rocker Arm conversion kit, no milling with this kit

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MrWesson22
Gearhead

Posts: 610
From: Dacula, GA
Registered: Sep 2000

posted 01-31-2002 10:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MrWesson22   Click Here to Email MrWesson22     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I ran my combination through Engine analyzer. The only concession I had to make was plugging in a 351W vic jr intake as they had no cleveland intakes to choose (I'm running a torker). It says my engine will make [email protected]/[email protected] Is this possible? That sounds way optimistic to me. I guess the only way to really know is get it on a dyno once I get it put together, but that'll be a while. Other things take priority over shelling out $$$ for a dyno session. What do you think?

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Neal
Member #723
[email protected] AIM: MrWesson22

69 Gulfstream Aqua Grande
351C/Toploader 4sp

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ProStreet64Falcon
unregistered
posted 02-01-2002 08:31 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Just Strokin:
Or use Crane Cam's Adjustable Rocker Arm conversion kit, no milling with this kit

This kit is only for Hydralic or Hydralic Roller cams. It will not work on a solid cam. These kits are great for the budget.

Someone makes a kit that used an adapter that screwed in a Ped mount without milling. The only problem was it went from a 5/16 thread in the Ped to a 9/16 stud for the roller rocker arm. Kind of a weak part if you ask me.

Guru Alex, I am sure you know a solution to this dilemma other than milling the heads, that would work for a non-race application and be reliable.

The only advantage to hydralic. Less Maintenance.

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64 Pro-Street Falcon
351 Cleveland 4V
8.21 1/8
70 Plymouth Cuda
440 Magnum
6.72 1/8

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 1994
From: huh?? what? who? ME!?!?!?!
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 02-01-2002 09:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I wouldnt trust any of those conversion kits any farther than I would trust a Yugo dealer workin on my Lightning.

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'69Stang
Journeyman

Posts: 36
From: Detroit, MI USA
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 02-01-2002 12:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for '69Stang   Click Here to Email '69Stang     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
MrWesson22: I don't think that looks optimistic at all. I recently saw a 351C with the Comp Cams 292S cam (solid) I believe a 244/244 grind at .050 that cranked out 498 at the flywheel. You are in the ballpark. With heads that flow over 300 CFM it is possible to make a lot of horsepower with the supporting parts.

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Moneymaker
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Posts: 11493
From: Lyons, IL, USA
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posted 02-01-2002 01:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I was under the impression that Neal already had an adjustable valve train Rick. If not, you are correct and then the appropriate changes must be made as far as rocker arm studs are concerned. The conversions are OK up to 6500 RPM and 125-130 lbs of seat pressure. I don't like them for long term high RPM use.

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Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
US Class Nationals link

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MrWesson22
Gearhead

Posts: 610
From: Dacula, GA
Registered: Sep 2000

posted 02-01-2002 02:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MrWesson22   Click Here to Email MrWesson22     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The heads are in the shop getting machined for screw-in studs and guideplates as we speak. Everything in my valvetrain will come from comp cams, except the valves - I'm using Milodon Megaflows.

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Neal
Member #723
[email protected] AIM: MrWesson22

69 Gulfstream Aqua Grande
351C/Toploader 4sp

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 607
From: Stanton, Michigan
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 02-01-2002 04:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 65_289:
What about solid roller cams?



...Assuming peak HP to be 6000 to 7000 rpms, and using a carb, intake and cyl head that can flow all that's available...

Do any of you guys believe the rollers offer enough additional power gains to justify their additional cost over solid flat-tappet cams?

Ryan

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 21832
From: Saco, Maine USA
Registered: May 99

posted 02-01-2002 05:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kid vishus:
I wouldnt trust any of those conversion kits any farther than I would trust a Yugo dealer workin on my Lightning.

Amen. I've used them and they are crap in my opinion. A valvetrain failure waiting to happen.

------------------

'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L DOHC

MCA Member # 47773

Of all the things I've lost, my mind is what I miss the most.

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 1994
From: huh?? what? who? ME!?!?!?!
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 02-01-2002 11:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ryan Wilke:
o any of you guys believe the rollers offer enough additional power gains to justify their additional cost over solid flat-tappet cams?

Ryan



In my case, no. It wasnt worth the extra cost. My roller cam ran a best of [email protected] mph in the 1/8 with a 1.356 60' time. Solid flat tappet cam ran 6.29 @108 with a 1.344 60' time in slightly worse air (and it ran 9.97 in the qrtr ). Both cams were similar in numbers too. Roller= 264 in, 272 exh, 108lsa, .650 lift on both, .026 lash int, .028 lash exh. Solid= 266 int, 277 exh, 107 lsa, .628, .625 lift, .022 int lash, .024 exh lash.

Needless to say, I am not impressed with roller cams as of right now. Perhaps my cam was wrong for my motor, I dont know, but I do know it cost alot more to go the same speed.

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 719
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 02-02-2002 05:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Solid rollers are really hard on the valvetrain as well. They literally yank the valve open, then slam it shut. They are hard on every part of the valvetrain and HELL on valve seats.

If you're not into a lot of maintenance and don't need that extra tenth at the strip, a solid flat tappet is a much better choice in a "moderate" sized camshaft.

Good Luck!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367

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Moneymaker
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Posts: 11493
From: Lyons, IL, USA
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posted 02-02-2002 01:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Unless you build your engine for constant 7500 or more RPM usage, a roller is a bit overkill.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
US Class Nationals link

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SundanceKid
Gearhead

Posts: 650
From: UT
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 02-02-2002 01:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SundanceKid   Click Here to Email SundanceKid     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Why didn't ya'll share this neat info when I asked the same question?

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 1994
From: huh?? what? who? ME!?!?!?!
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 02-02-2002 01:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
Unless you build your engine for constant 7500 or more RPM usage, a roller is a bit overkill.



Is that why my car ran the same et with the solid cam as with the roller? Because it wasnt ran over 7500? I have been curious about it ever since the solid ran the same as teh roller did.

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themav
Journeyman

Posts: 18
From: Buena Park Calif. USA
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 02-02-2002 03:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for themav   Click Here to Email themav     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hmmm,I run a solid roller, at first I would check them after every pass, now I check them every weekend or after a day at the track before I drive home, April will be three years I have had to adjust them once, have had no type of valve related problems, I shift at 8,100 am I just lucky?

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 1994
From: huh?? what? who? ME!?!?!?!
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 02-02-2002 05:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I never had any type of valve related problems, not if you dont count shearing the pin off the front of the cam. I checked my lash on every oil change, about every 5-6 weeks, and it never changed. I did use to send my lifters in every year for rebuilding as a precationary measure against premature destruction. But the rollercam sure didnt make any power than the solid I have now does. And now I dont have to worry about all that seat and open spring pressure shearing the pin again and bending all my valves, ruining the bearings in the roller lifters, fouling up the camshaft, wrecking some rocker arms, bending pushrods, and like I found out this last time it happened, cracking the main webbing in the block.

For me, it sure isnt worth the risk nor the extra cost to run a roller cam and then not run any faster.

------------------
member #773
'69 mustang, 351C, 9.97 @ 132 mph
'70 mustang, flintstone power
'93 F150 Lightning

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chips67
Gearhead

Posts: 537
From: louisville, ky, usa
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 02-02-2002 08:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chips67   Click Here to Email chips67     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
hey, i guess if a flat solid cam is that great i wont need to trash that 89 non h.o. 302 i got and i can quit looking for a roller cam block to build.

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67 coupe, 650dp and rpm intake on 5.0 with afr 165 heads, 4 speed, 4.11's.....best so far is [email protected] in 1/8 mile with 1.79 60ft. time.

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themav
Journeyman

Posts: 18
From: Buena Park Calif. USA
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 02-02-2002 11:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for themav   Click Here to Email themav     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Geee Kid maybe its those manly spring pressures your talking about that are getting you into trouble, if you don't pick up rpm's with a solid roller you did something wrong, like maybe you used the same shift points? We use solid rollers in our drag boats, as well as our blown and injected f/c in every case we picked up et,mph, and rpms with no broken parts anywhere.

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 1994
From: huh?? what? who? ME!?!?!?!
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 02-02-2002 11:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I had 250 lbs on the seat, and just over 630 open. With any less than that pressure there was evidence of valve float on the seats when we took the heads apart, so we increased it to that point and the seats look a lot better now. Besides, I'm not the only one who has broken the pin on a roller cam. It is a definate weak point on the fords. More than one guy here has done the same thing, break that pin and foul up a bunch of expensive parts.

Same shift points, same leave rpm, and it actually 60' a little better with the solid cam. It ran exactly the same et, the same mph, the same everything with the solid cam as with the roller. I tried more rpm, less rpm, more leave, less leave, the same points for both is what worked best for both applications.

I definately has me baffled. But as for right now, I'm stickin with the lower dollar solid cam.

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themav
Journeyman

Posts: 18
From: Buena Park Calif. USA
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 02-03-2002 12:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for themav   Click Here to Email themav     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
hyd or solid roller the whole idea is to let the cam do the work it's ramp speeds(angels) that snap the valve open or closed I don't run anywhere near those kind of numbers you are talking about on the springs the only time I see someone have trouble pulling the valve through the seat is with to much spring pressure

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 1994
From: huh?? what? who? ME!?!?!?!
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 02-03-2002 08:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by themav:
the only time I see someone have trouble pulling the valve through the seat is with to much spring pressure


I dont have that problem, never had. The only real problem I have ever had with my roller is shearing the pin off the front of the cam.

As for the spring pressures I run, I'm pretty sure Alex runs numbers close to that if not more, as do a lot of the guys I race with every week. And some of them run ALOT more than I do.

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themav
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Posts: 18
From: Buena Park Calif. USA
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posted 02-04-2002 05:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for themav   Click Here to Email themav     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
And I am saying breaking the cam pin was a secondary problem to a common mistake. Let's recap--- you said you tried lighter spring pressure but because of the rapid rates of the roller cam if was causing the roller to be flipped open(when starting to open valve) and was causing the problems you said you were having with the seats(tring to pull the valve thru the seat) so that was the reason for going with high spring rates,to keep the valves from floating, and here is where you made your mistake I call it thinking thru a problem, solving it,and then ooops,coming out the other side. When you incressed spring pressures to the point that you did to correct the problem of floating the valves(which should have been done in baby steps) you forgot about what happens with all that spring pressure when the valve snaps shut and here is where you either broke or extremely hurt the roller(or the bushing or roller bearings) or in a very short time rammped the cam as to flip the valve back open for a split second as the roller went thru the valley and here is what happens most of the time, with all that sping pressure when the valve closes and due to the extremely fast rates of a roller cam it will bounce the lifter all that pressure has no where to go. The only way to cause damage by floating a valve is having it open when it should be shut, if you float a valve on a roller cam when the valve opens whats is it going to hurt, what the heck is it going to hit? Now of course if you let this condition continue it will try to pull the valve, and this is where checking your valves every oil change or 5 to 8 thousand miles would have bitten you.Where did the forces come from that broke the cam pin? Let be the first to tell you and the others you have seen shear cam pins, to much spring pressure!!!!!!!! Now please don't think I am attacking you choice to go flat tappet, I am not I am just protecting us who chose to run them for all the opposite reasons you have mentioned they are rock solid,low maint,and wear at a fraction of the rate of any type of flat tappet. And it is the wear factor that I chose to run a roller, even in a engine that only spins 6500 rpm.

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 1994
From: huh?? what? who? ME!?!?!?!
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 02-05-2002 06:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
First of all, the first time I sheared a pin off was using the seat pressure teh cam card called for. I started with 220#'s on the seat, like the card recommmended. The seats looked bad at the end of the year. The shop I go thru recommended raising the seat pressure to get the valves to stop bouncing on the seat. Now the seats look better. The cam still shows no signs of wear, and the roller lifters have not been hurt due to the higher seat pressure. When it was lower however, some of them did get roller damamge due to getting "tossed" off the cam and bouncing on the lobe. And anyways, when dealing with valves the size that are in my heads, 250#'s of seat pressure isn't that extreme.
Although I have found my solid makes the same power as my roller did, I still believe that rollers will make more power.

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Moneymaker
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From: Lyons, IL, USA
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posted 02-05-2002 12:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have been doing this stuff for over 30 years now and although I have much experiance with most engine makes, I have probably devoted 85% or more of my racing life to SBF's. Up until very recently I have never felt the need to worry about a cam pin on a SBF as long as it was a very high quality piece. I have used spring pressures exceeding 300# with single pins. I have never had a cam pin realted failure in anything that I built. I have had a pin or two fail in projects that I was involved with, but the pin was of inferior material, or upon further inspection, it was caused by valve float.
When I switched over to roller bearing cams with an ultra radical ramp design and began to launch the valve off of the seat, and slam it back down, we began to feel some concern over the life of the cam pin. At that time I installed dual pins for insurance. Even with the "better" 351 firing order which is supposed to aid harmonics, we still felt that it was a good idea. As easy as it is to do, I would recomend anyone who is using over 200 #'s on the seat to install a second pin.
With the ultra radical cam profiles available for drag racing today, the cams are doing things far beyond their original design expectations. With the profiles that KV is using I do not feel that spring pressure was the culprit in his cam pins demise. The pins supplied by most cam grinders are NOT of premium quality. They usually supply the same pin regardless of grind. With the amount of passes he puts on a year, I would be more apt to blame fatigue than anything else.
NOTE TO BFX Falcon:
The conversions are not only for use in hydraulic applications. I have used them for solid conversions many times, especially in Oldsmobubbles. As long as you do not over tax them as with anyting else, they will work fine. There are solid cams that are limited to 6000 RPM or less.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
US Class Nationals link

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 607
From: Stanton, Michigan
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 02-05-2002 06:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OK -
#1) If a guy is running 220ft#s valve seat pressure & decides he should go the extra step and double-pin his cam, where can that get done - should any reliable performance machine shop be able to drill the cam head and the timing gear out?

#2) As I recall, my Cloyes double-roller cam timing gear has a boss where the single pin hole is bored, but not a second 'blank' boss.... are there other makers of cam timing gears that provide a second boss for the second pin hole?

#3) Where can a fella get one of these "better cam pins"?

#4) I've also noticed that some pins are longer than others,,,, should a fella use a longer rather than a shorter pin and loctite it in?

Thanks in advance, Guys!
Ryan

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Moneymaker
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From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 02-05-2002 11:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
1)Any reliable maching shop can drill the cam and gear.
2)See answer one.
3)Any industrial supply store will have the bar stock or hardened pins. That's where I get mine. May have to go to Grand Rapids in your case Ryan.
4)The different pins legnths are for with or withour a mechanical fuel pump eccentric, or early or late cam gears. You can use them both in a dual situation.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
US Class Nationals link

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 719
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 02-06-2002 07:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Double pinning was discussed here as well.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=85220&messageid=1012950277

Good Luck!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367

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themav
Journeyman

Posts: 18
From: Buena Park Calif. USA
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 02-06-2002 10:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for themav   Click Here to Email themav     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kid vishus:
First of all, the first time I sheared a pin off was using the seat pressure teh cam card called for. I started with 220#'s on the seat, like the card recommmended. The seats looked bad at the end of the year. The shop I go thru recommended raising the seat pressure to get the valves to stop bouncing on the seat. Now the seats look better. The cam still shows no signs of wear, and the roller lifters have not been hurt due to the higher seat pressure. When it was lower however, some of them did get roller damamge due to getting "tossed" off the cam and bouncing on the lobe. And anyways, when dealing with valves the size that are in my heads, 250#'s of seat pressure isn't that extreme.
Although I have found my solid makes the same power as my roller did, I still believe that rollers will make more power.

I think it's time you found someone else to do your machine work, it doesn't matter if you have a 4" valve you can close it and keep it closed with 40 pounds of seat pressure,(now I'm not saying try this) when you or whoever flows your heads is he using your springs to do it? And again if you have to double pin or go searching for a special hardened pin you have another problem
and I would start by checking for excessive cam walk, or no end play at all, the latter being the problem most of the time. Never, I repeat Never, trust a cam mfgr's cam card or their recommended spring pressures.

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 1994
From: huh?? what? who? ME!?!?!?!
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 02-06-2002 10:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Since the shop I go thru has been in business since 1974 and produces more winning race motors every year then any other shop within a 200 mile radius, I'm gonna stick with them. And besides, another local shop that does alot of big time national stock/super stock motors, agreed with raising the seat pressure. Also, I believe Alex's track record speaks for itself and he doesnt seem to agree completely with your idea of what my problem was caused by. And since I put an average of 240 passes a year on my car at the track, fatigue probably does play a big role in the pin failure. (Side note: This year I put 342 passes on my car.)

The first pin I sheared (after 2 full seasons), I replaced with a dowel pin from an industrial machine shop. I never had any problems with that better pin, even with my "too high of seat pressure". When I changed cams since I wanted something a little bigger, I never changed the pin in the new camshaft, and that was the last one that broke (after 2 1/2 seasons on it).


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member #773
'69 mustang, 351C, 9.97 @ 132 mph 1/4, 6.27 @ 108 1/8, 1.344 60'
'70 mustang, flintstone power
'93 F150 Lightning

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 607
From: Stanton, Michigan
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 02-06-2002 05:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Alex: Thks for the answers!

n2oMike: Thks for the other site info!

SteveL: Thks for keeping this site going!


...AREN'T US FORD GUYS JUST A GREAT BUNCH ?!

Ryan

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 11493
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 02-06-2002 07:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Actually my favorite pins are............
"Pin Ups"!

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
US Class Nationals link

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Fordwiser
Journeyman

Posts: 85
From: Metamora, Illinois
Registered: Dec 2000

posted 02-06-2002 10:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fordwiser   Click Here to Email Fordwiser     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ok I'll throw this idea out! I think everyone will agree the higher you raise spring pressure the more strain is put on every part in the valvetrain. If you are having trouble with valve float (or bounce)the only alterative to raising spring pressure to control it, is to run lighter parts. The big down side of this is cost, because you have to replace parts you already have with ones made of more exotic materials or at least ones of better quality.
Roger

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themav
Journeyman

Posts: 18
From: Buena Park Calif. USA
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 02-07-2002 01:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for themav   Click Here to Email themav     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kid vishus:
Since the shop I go thru has been in business since 1974 and produces more winning race motors every year then any other shop within a 200 mile radius, I'm gonna stick with them. And besides, another local shop that does alot of big time national stock/super stock motors, agreed with raising the seat pressure. Also, I believe Alex's track record speaks for itself and he doesnt seem to agree completely with your idea of what my problem was caused by. And since I put an average of 240 passes a year on my car at the track, fatigue probably does play a big role in the pin failure. (Side note: This year I put 342 passes on my car.)

The first pin I sheared (after 2 full seasons), I replaced with a dowel pin from an industrial machine shop. I never had any problems with that better pin, even with my "too high of seat pressure". When I changed cams since I wanted something a little bigger, I never changed the pin in the new camshaft, and that was the last one that broke (after 2 1/2 seasons on it).





Yeah those records are pretty cool,me I like championships even if its just a nothing et bracket series, and to do that you need to be there every week racing not at home sweeping up parts with a fox tail and dust pan, you just don't get it, the reason the later pins worked was because you exploded the parts you broke in the first place, and gosh Kenny Moore agrees with me, most of the guys at CIFCA agree,and most of the guys in IHBA,NJBA agree and in the keeping score arena thats about 30 high points championships since 1985

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 1994
From: huh?? what? who? ME!?!?!?!
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 02-07-2002 01:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by themav:
me I like championships even if its just a nothing et bracket series,

I like 'em too.

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