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Author Topic:   gapless vs. file fit
Fastback
Journeyman

Posts: 28
From: Livonia,MI
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 01-14-2002 08:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastback   Click Here to Email Fastback     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Anyone ever use the gapless rings before? What kind did you use and did you like them? I am ready to buy new rings and was wondering if the gapless actually work and worth the money?


Fastback

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 6590
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 01-14-2002 08:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Not worth the money in my opinion. A very well known sprint car builder from around here says the gapless rings actually "flutter" in the ring lands at rpm and cause severe leakage. He wont use them.

I have used them before (gapless), and now use good file fit rings and the car runs the same, and has the same leakdown at the end of the year.

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[email protected]
Gearhead

Posts: 935
From: Lakewood, CO, USA
Registered: Jun 2001

posted 01-15-2002 01:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for JCQuinn@work   Click Here to Email JCQuinn@work     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I guess you could say I like them. I used to use them in my 2Liter Pinto in Stock eliminator. I set a national record, won the Division 4 Stock eliminator championship made 104 horsepower(122 CI) at the rear wheels on a dyno and could buzz the engine until it ran out of breath. The leak down tests were outstanding (I don't remember the numbers) Of course all this stuff was easier in the early 70's but anyway I intend to use them again in my next race motor.

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Rory McNeil
Gearhead

Posts: 1687
From: Surrey, B.C. Canada
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 01-15-2002 03:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rory McNeil   Click Here to Email Rory McNeil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
On my FE Fords, I have tried the Total Seal & the Childs & Albert versions of "gapless" 2nd rings.Although they generally had better leakdown numbers than the Speed Pro "file fits" I normally ran, there was no improvement on the ET slip. Don`t forget, during a leakdown test,you are pressurizing the cylinder for a minute or so, with the engine not moving, not exactly the same conditions as a engine spinning 6 or 7000 RPM. Plus, the gapless rings are a fair bit more expensive. I haven`t used them in quite a while.

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78 Fairmont 428 4 speed [email protected]
80 Fairmont 302 5 speed [email protected]
85 Mustang NHRA Stocker under construction, 302 5 speed

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 45869
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 01-15-2002 08:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
After using gapless, I'd never use anything else. Zero blowby, zero oil hazing after starting an engine after sitting for a few years, dry spark plugs, cleaner oil. Dyno tests show they make more power. I'm sold on them.

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'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L DOHC

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V8 Thumper
Gearhead

Posts: 4681
From: Phoenix, Arizona
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 01-15-2002 08:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper   Click Here to Email V8 Thumper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Several engine builders I've spoken with won't use them. Period. A small amount of blowby can help keep the oil rings from loading up. As kid referred to, apparently there is evidence that they (gappless) want to 'flutter' under high load, creating MORE blowby than good old file-fitters.

Never ran them myself, but I did some snooping around a while back and decided that they were not worth the extra money, not for my application at least. I personally put my faith in high quality file-fit rings and precision machine work.

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 45869
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 01-15-2002 09:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would think if I had ring flutter it would show as ring land wear. Oh well, to each their own.

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'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L DOHC

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 27499
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-15-2002 02:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have tried them all.
From 4 piece Pedric's, to every gap less ring there is or was. We have had success with both gap less and file fit. Power levels are similar, but the major draw back with the gap less rings was cylinder bore wear and ring wear. 80 runs max with the gap less stuff and we were leaking over 5% or more. Blocks wore out in a hurry too.
So in conclusion I like my women bra less, and my rings file fit gapped.

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Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
US Class Nationals link

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Fastback
Journeyman

Posts: 28
From: Livonia,MI
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 01-15-2002 06:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastback   Click Here to Email Fastback     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There seems to be mixed reviews on the gapless rings which I think is good. The Sealed Power piston ring catalog I have has a article in it about recent testing has proven that a larger second ring gap increases the top ring's ability to seal combustion alowing an escape path to prevent inter-ring presure building up and prevents the rings to flutter at high speed providing more horses. Doesn't Sealed Power make Total Seal gapless rings?

Fastback

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 45869
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 01-15-2002 06:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Total Seal is it's own company, as far as I know...

www.totalseal.com

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'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L DOHC

"Speed costs money. How fast do you want to spend?"

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 27499
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-15-2002 09:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Total Seal is not affiliated with any other ring company. They do purchase much of their product from Sealed Power.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
US Class Nationals link

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 2494
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 01-16-2002 10:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Speaking of piston ring manufacturers, wasn't 'Perfect Circle' absorbed into the DANA Corporation some years back ?

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Fastback
Journeyman

Posts: 28
From: Livonia,MI
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 01-16-2002 06:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastback   Click Here to Email Fastback     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes I believe you are correct Ryan about Perfect Circle moving into the Dana Corp. I see you are from Stanton, MI right by the Stanton Raceway. I was there a few years ago for Muscle Car Review magazine for the classic stock 355 cubic inch and smaller time trials they had going on. It was pretty cool to see all different types of old classic cars in stock form run down the 1/4 mile track.


Fastback

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 2494
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 01-22-2002 09:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Fastback:
Yep, I'm just 4.5 miles from the track (see www.midmichmotorplex.com) which is very for getting to Wednesday's TnT night or the weekends, but on the other hand I'm a LONG way from CoBo Hall (AutoRama), Milan Dragway, Norfolk Raceway Park, etc. and you have NPD just around the corner from you!

...a last word on MMMP; it'll be interesting as to what happens to their '2002 Events Calendar' as rumor has it that the IHRA's Northern Nationals will be held at US-131 Dragway (Martin, MI) this Summer, rather than at MMMP as in recent years.

Later,,, Ryan

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The '3-Pedal Attitude' Kid
in a '69 FB w/ 306 now, but
the 460+ is coming... :D

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 27499
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-22-2002 06:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
PC, Spicer, Victor,Autolite, Bendix, Fram, and many other companies are under the entire DANA umbrella which is all for sale by the way. Anyone interested?

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Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
US Class Nationals link

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bluestreek
Gearhead

Posts: 1724
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 01-24-2002 12:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bluestreek   Click Here to Email bluestreek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I was thinking about using gapless rings myself and found out that you can get gapless first ring or gapless 2nd ring. Now I'm really confused!! I'm still not sure if I want to use them or not.
From what I've read, the gapless first ring has been found to make better power in the upper rpm range and the gapless 2nd ring gives better sealing in the lower rpm range.

I found this little tidbit on ring flutter while researching KB pistons..

quoted from www.kb-silvolite.com :

"Accumulator Groove is the groove between the 1st and 2nd compression ring. It does make the piston lighter, but the real purpose is more abstract. Pressure spikes that get trapped between the 1st and 2nd compression rings tend to unseat the top ring. This action encourages ring flutter and loss of piston ring seal. Past efforts to reduce ring unseating pressure have included increasing the second ring end gap. Now, with the addition of the accumulator groove, ring flutter can be controlled in all engines. The void created by this groove between the rings tends to average the normal pressure present, keeping the pressure low enough to prevent lifting the top ring while maintaining some preload on the 2nd (oil scraping) ring."

http://www.kb-silvolite.com/page12.htm

BS

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