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Author Topic:   What is a good price to pay?
ProStreet64Falcon
unregistered
posted 01-04-2002 08:45 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
For a good STD bore bare 351 C block? It needs to be cleaned and the usual prep for build. I plan on building a stroker so I need to know if I got a good deal.

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64 Pro-Street Falcon
351 Cleveland 4V
8.21 1/8
70 Plymouth Cuda
440 Magnum
6.72 1/8

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badazzcougar
Gearhead

Posts: 132
From: Seattle
Registered: Oct 2001

posted 01-04-2002 09:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for badazzcougar   Click Here to Email badazzcougar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
$100 and a trip to washington will get you one with the std crank and a set of 2V heads. Ive got a few to clear out of the garage

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ProStreet64Falcon
unregistered
posted 01-04-2002 10:02 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I won one on Ebay yesterday. Paid $87.00 for it. I have to pick it up in Waco. So I guess I got a good deal. At least I won't have to drive to Seattle! Now to collect the rest of the parts for my stroker.

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futurattraction
Gearhead

Posts: 106
From: Iowa City, IA
Registered: Oct 2001

posted 01-04-2002 07:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for futurattraction   Click Here to Email futurattraction     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What stroke are you planning to run? Are you collecting individual pieces, or buying a whole kit? Scott

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19686
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-04-2002 07:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Good price.

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Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Moneymaker Bio
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ProStreet64Falcon
unregistered
posted 01-04-2002 11:48 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Scott,
I want a 393 or a 408
I have not decided yet. I have been eyeballing all of the write-ups on here about using the 400 crank. (I think you posted those) I am leaning towards it a bit because it seems cost effective. I do not know what the machinist work will cost yet. If it is close to the same as getting a kit then I will go with the kit.

I plan on getting it done a little at a time. I have a good 357C in the Falcon now so luckily I am not in a big hurry. Maybe ready this time next year.

I have to build the stroker to handle my centrifugal blower so compression needs to be tame. Probably a roller cam...

Got any ideas?

------------------
64 Pro-Street Falcon
351 Cleveland 4V
8.21 1/8
70 Plymouth Cuda
440 Magnum
6.72 1/8

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futurattraction
Gearhead

Posts: 106
From: Iowa City, IA
Registered: Oct 2001

posted 01-05-2002 11:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for futurattraction   Click Here to Email futurattraction     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi ProStreet64Falcon,

I?m kind of in the same boat as you. I?ve toyed with both displacements. I have three parameters within which I?m trying stick, all of which lean me toward the 393. One, is that I?m going to run ported Aussie heads. I feel pretty confident that they?ll provide enough flow for the smaller displacement; I?m not sure about the 408. Two, I want to be able to drive this on the street. All other things being equal, the larger the displacement will raise compression. I?d really like to keep it at 11:1 (or under) due to available fuel, although there is a local airport that I can probably get av-gas, if need be. Three, I hope to run nitrous sometime, and I think I need/want to stick to the Scat products, rather than try going with the cut down 400 crank, as tempting as it may be. Like you, I haven?t actually investigated cost for that process yet, but I?m thinking it?s probably a moot point in my case since I'm leaning hard toward the 393.

Actually, a more perplexing question for me is whether to build a 6? or 5.85? (either of them being SBC-sourced) rod 393. Based on factory dimensions, using a 5.85 rod and the 3.85 stroke permits the use of a 1.44 compression height piston. Based on a 9.205 deck height, it puts the piston .010 out of the hole. The 1.44 flat top pistons are used in 6? rod, stock stroke 351Cs, so they?re considered a stocking piston by many manufacturers (makes them cheaper than custom order pieces).

Some people may look at me cross-eyed and wonder why I wouldn?t just simply build the longer rod engine, so as to get the best rod length/stroke ratio and decrease cylinder wall thrust loading?both of which are excellent points. The 5.85? rod allows for a bit more space in which to package the rings as compared to the 6? rod, especially if it puts the wrist pin up into the oil rings. Assuming the 1.44 piston is a bit "taller" (and that would depend in part on skirt design, etc.), it would permit a more stable piston in the bore?good for better oil control, tighter cylinder wall clearances, etc. Part of my potential argument for considering the 5.85 rod is that I?ll probably use block filler to help stabilize the lower portion of the cylinders, so thrust loads won?t be the issue they would be otherwise. Finally, using a 6? rod in a 408 results in a 1.5 rl/s ratio. The 5.85? rod, with 3.85 stroke, comes out to 1.52?a tiny bit better than the 408. I?m not going to say there aren?t faults/oversights in my views of all this stuff, but that?s where I?m at currently (subject to revision).

As an aside, KB makes a hypereutectic flat top in the 1.44 dimension for the Cleveland head design. It is for a 6.2 rod Clevor engine.

I?m really trying to keep all my options open at this point, asking lots of question, looking at Ford boards, and trying to get prices on components to figure out where things stand cost-wise. I AM trying to do it a piece at a time because I think I can snoop out better prices than I can get kit-wise. So far I've found a best price of $465 plus shipping for the 3.85 Scat crank. My next quest is to snoop out the best price I can find on pistons. One final thing that makes this tough is I?ve got a set of 5.85? Oliver rods I got pretty cheap that are in great condition and just itching to be put in a Ford motor! Hehehe
Take care!
Scott

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TomP
Gearhead

Posts: 4780
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99

posted 01-06-2002 02:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for TomP   Click Here to Email TomP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
5.85" rods are long enough , that won't be a problem and it's nice to have off-the-shelf pistons to fit it.

FYI= current 500" NHRA ProStock engines use as short as 9" deck heights and strokes between 3.56" and 3.64"... not much room for a very long rod in those big blocks.

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 4357
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 01-06-2002 10:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by futurattraction:
One, is that I?m going to run ported Aussie heads. I feel pretty confident that they?ll provide enough flow for the smaller displacement;


My opinion, nope. A severely ported 2v head is lucky if it flows what a 4v head does bone stock. Even knowing the you dont want to spin the motor, and are after good port velocity, I would still use 4v heads. A buddy I race with has a 377C with 4v heads, he only turns it 6500, and it runs extremely hard. I just think that the 2v heads will choke the motor badly, even the "small" 393.

As for the rod length, I would think the 6" rod would be best. If they can make a piston for a 6.2 rod with a 3.85 stroke and keep the pin out of the second ring, a 6" rod with that stroke should have the pin out of the oil rings. Your best bet would be to call the piston manufacturers and ask them.

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futurattraction
Gearhead

Posts: 106
From: Iowa City, IA
Registered: Oct 2001

posted 01-06-2002 01:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for futurattraction   Click Here to Email futurattraction     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
KV,
You're right--I should talk to some piston manufacturers to find out more specifics about ring and pin placement before making any assumptions...and I agree with you, in principle, re 4V head flow. I'll admit that my assumptions re my Aussie heads are based on software projections, albeit reasonably accurate ones, I believe. I've got Engine Analyzer and, based on the port data I've inputted, a 393 makes power, with a VERY mild cam, up to 6000, then falls off...which suits me just fine. Just so you know I didn't just dream up flow numbers/port dimensions, I "stole" the ported 2V data from EA, so that's what my projections are based on. Given that I will probably only hobby race, i.e., seeing how quick/fast the combination can run (not even true bracket racing 'cause I won't go often enough to get good on the lights or to develop driving consistency), I'm not concerned about wringing all the power out of this motor. Of course those plans could change!

The other thing I hope you can identify with, looking at your race engine update thread, is money. Changing to 4V heads would necessitate spending lots of $$ to upgrade to headers designed for 4V ports, different intake and camshaft, lower gears, higher stall, etc., not to mention the work involved. My wife would probably disagree with my description of the Fairmont, but it IS a hobby--not an obsession. All of those 4V related changes would require that much more time investment...not good for the marriage! Besides...I've got other areas that I consider more pressing as far as spending is concerned. Current plans for the Fairmont are that it will spend the bulk of its use being street driven. Even if I decide to race it more seriously, I'm willing to start with a milder engine and go from there.

I DO value your input, I guess I'm just not at the stage where I think the 4V heads are suitable for what I'm trying to accomplish. Thanks!
Scott

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 4357
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 01-06-2002 02:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
With an engine that size, I would still put 4v sized headers on it anyways. The bigger motor would definatley like a bigger primary tube. As for head flow numbers, I was using some numbers I got form a buddy in Dubuque that gets real good numbers out of the 2v heads, but they are still less than a stock 4v head. Plus, I dont really think that once a 4v motor got to that size of c.i. that it would require the same gearing or convertor as a stock stroke motor. The torque band would be lowered due to the larger displacement.

But I can totally relate to finances dictating what gets done.

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futurattraction
Gearhead

Posts: 106
From: Iowa City, IA
Registered: Oct 2001

posted 01-06-2002 03:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for futurattraction   Click Here to Email futurattraction     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Kid,
I guess the bottom line to much of this is that if I had to do things over again, I would probably change lots of stuff, but since I'm playing the cards I dealt myself, I'll do the best I can.

If I'd have know three or four years ago that I was gonna plan to do a stroker, I'd have kept the set of 4V CC heads I used to have and I'd be one step closer to being all set...but...

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