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  Locked out timing?

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Author Topic:   Locked out timing?
Dave_C
Gearhead

Posts: 1123
From: Gadsden, Al
Registered: Aug 99

posted 12-31-2001 05:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dave_C        Reply w/Quote
What would be the advantage, if any, to locking the timing in my MSD distributor?

It's pretty easy to do on an MSD. I currently have it set up at 18 initial with a 21 advance bushing. Total of 39. I have one light and one medium spring. Advance starts at 1300 rpm and is all in by 2600 or so. With my converter, the advance is all in by the time the car moves anyways, so are there any advantages? Starting it with very high initial would not be a problem. I have a seperate switch for the iginition. I can spin the motor and then fire it. Plus I have a gear reduction starter.

For the new members that don't know my combo: 69 Mustang, 383W stroker, solid roller cam .624/.628 262/272 @ .050, 104 lca, 13:1 comp dome pistons. Powerglide, 8" 5400 stall converter 5.43 gears 33" tall tires. 3000 lbs w driver.

Thanks,

David Cole

[This message has been edited by Dave_C (edited 12-31-2001).]

kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 7251
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 12-31-2001 05:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus        Reply w/Quote
I have been told it improves throttle response and stabilizes the timing since there arent any weights moving around. All the local circle track guys run with the timing locked out. I personally have never done it. I dont care much for the thought of trying to start the car with 42* of timing after having ran 3 pases in less than half an hour. Although I have been tempted to try it on a test n tune to see if its worth any power. My car is already as consistent as I'll probably ever make it.

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 29200
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 12-31-2001 05:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker        Reply w/Quote
The timing would be absolute David and would never vary. This is the way I set up all competition engines or real hot street and strip stuff. I only do curves for mild street applications or when I have to use a customers older distributor.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00 & '01
Fleet of FoMoCo products
Moneymaker Bio
US Class Nationals link

Dave_C
Gearhead

Posts: 1123
From: Gadsden, Al
Registered: Aug 99

posted 01-01-2002 10:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dave_C        Reply w/Quote
Thanks,

That's what I wanted to know. I'm going to try it at the first T-N-T of the season next month.

Later,

David Cole

steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 9835
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 01-01-2002 10:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66        Reply w/Quote
Dave,

It is the way to go on a strip only car! Do you have a timing retard feature in your ignition?

SteveW

Dave_C
Gearhead

Posts: 1123
From: Gadsden, Al
Registered: Aug 99

posted 01-01-2002 11:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dave_C        Reply w/Quote
Steve,

No, I don't have a timing retard. But to make starting easier I do have a seperate switch for the ignition. I can turn off the box (MSD 7AL2) with the switch. The hit the key, spin the motor and then flip the switch for the ignition. It will fire instantly when I do that.

With my distributor set up the way it is now it will turn over easily even with the ignition on, but I've been using the switch if the car has not been started in a few days. I spin it over and then flip the switch the instant I see the oil pressure gauge needle start to move. Makes sure that all the oil galleries are primed before it starts.

Later,

David Cole

steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 9835
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 01-01-2002 11:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66        Reply w/Quote
David,

Perfect, do it. It'll idle better too.


SteveW

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 29200
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-01-2002 11:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker        Reply w/Quote
I never have had any trouble starting MM or most any other engine that we use locked down timing on. I do not have to use a timing retard (just a driver retard lol)and we do not have to spin it with the ignition off either. A good starter and battery will go a long way also.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Moneymaker Bio
US Class Nationals link

clevelandstyle
Gearhead

Posts: 1558
From: central Indiana
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 01-02-2002 06:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for clevelandstyle        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
The timing would be absolute David and would never vary. This is the way I set up all competition engines or real hot street and strip stuff. I only do curves for mild street applications or when I have to use a customers older distributor.



I have never thought about doing this because I do drive on the street just a little. I only drive it to work, maybe once a month in good weather.(summer only) Should I try this? Will it really be a benifit?

------------------
Ben
Grabber Green '70 Mach I 351C 4V
Robbin Egg Blue '79 Fairmont 351C 4V

Money Maker
Administrator

Posts: 63
From: Lyons IL, USA
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 01-02-2002 07:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Money Maker        Reply w/Quote
It will definatly run smoother and idle better. Low RPM throttle response will improve dramaticly.

------------------
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA, IHRA, and SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder
2000, 2001, and 2002
US Class Nationals co-organizer
Owner of a fleet of FoMoCo's including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28

DRAGSTANG351
Journeyman

Posts: 71
From: FLORIDA
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 01-03-2002 01:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DRAGSTANG351        Reply w/Quote
how can i lock out my timing what do i need to do, it's a MSD distributor with mechanical advance, my 351c idles rough would this help. thanks kelly

badazzcougar
Gearhead

Posts: 132
From: Seattle
Registered: Oct 2001

posted 01-03-2002 01:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for badazzcougar        Reply w/Quote
You have to pull out the distributor, remove the roll pin on the collar that keeps the shaft from going up into the body . tap the shaft up into the body, turn your advanve plate around so the pin drops into the hole in the trigger wheel . The you tap the shaft back in , repin and reinstall.

n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 3058
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 01-03-2002 07:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike        Reply w/Quote
Remember, Alex's car is restricted to "factory" compression pistons and only displaces 289ci (or there abouts). Add to this a HUGE cam capable of 9k rpm, and the cranking compression isn't going to be toooo much of a load on the starter.

His engine is going to be easier to start than a 12:1 351+ci bullet.

Engines with locked out distributers DO have some serious off idle throttle response!

If you want to try it with a high compression, large ci engine, a timing retard can make life much easier. Many ignition boxes offer a 20 degree "start" retard for such applications. If you've already got an MSD setup, the "multi step retard" can be added, and has this feature. I believe the Digital 6+ has it built right in.

Good Luck!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367

badazzcougar
Gearhead

Posts: 132
From: Seattle
Registered: Oct 2001

posted 01-03-2002 10:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for badazzcougar        Reply w/Quote
Well I just got the distributor back in and locked the timing at 32 degrees for 92 octane pump gas with the 10.3 to 1 compression I am running. It was a little lopey starting it but the idle quality was the world better once I turned the idle down a bit and richened up the idle mixture. I picked up 2 inches of vacuum as well so I'm up to 13 ... woohoo.

The off idle hesitation I had before is completely gone and the throttle response from idle to 2800 is nothing short of amazing. I'm running a 351 C , 750 vacuum secondary Holley with a proform body, , 50 CC pump, white cam , long yellow spring in the vac pot which I may go lighter on now on a excellerator manifold with a 1 inch 4 hole spacer . The cam is a compcams 280 H and I have a 2700 stall converter . Its just running awesome now . Thanks for the tip.

steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 9835
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 01-03-2002 10:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66        Reply w/Quote

It is the way to go, esp. if you have a timing retard. Of course not for your daily driver, but on a mostly strip car it "rocks".

SteveW

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 29200
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-03-2002 10:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker        Reply w/Quote
When you get anything over 12 to 1 static compression a timing retard or at the very least a separate toggle switch for the ignition box is a good idea. Then again if you have a wide centerline cam you will not have any trouble either.
LT-1 chebbies have very high compression and locked in computer controled timing and they crank well because of the camshaft.
Mike, you would be shocked at how short the lobe center is on my cam. and where I have it in at

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Moneymaker Bio
US Class Nationals link

n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 3058
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 01-03-2002 11:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike        Reply w/Quote
No doubt Alex...

Running that low of a compression ratio, and building workable compression with a cam capable of 9k rpm takes some doing!

As some know, the piston can only compress the air it traps in the cylinder. Long durations and wide lobe seperations push the intake closing event into the "compression" stroke. If air is escaping out the intake valve as the piston travels upward, it's not getting compressed, and cylinder pressure goes out the window! Narrowing the lobe seperation helps build more compression. I'd say you also have the cam advanced quite a bit too.

Some people mistakenly believe that compression is lost during the OVERLAP period... WRONG! Overlap occurs when the exhaust valve is closing and the intake is just starting to open... Nothing is being compressed yet! NARROWING the lobe seperation pulls the intake closing event out of the compression stroke. Advancing the cam will make the intake valve close sooner as well.

Oh, By the way... one of my home ported 289 heads is getting flowed! The valve job is old, and the seats aren't as high as they used to be... but I'm anxious to see what they're worth. I'll share the info if anyone is interested.

Good Luck!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367

DRAGSTANG351
Journeyman

Posts: 71
From: FLORIDA
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 01-04-2002 01:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DRAGSTANG351        Reply w/Quote
hey guy's i'm having a little trouble trying to lock out the timing on my MSD dist, i got the pin removed from the collar and got the shaft to go up in the body took off the springs and the weights and took off the nut from under the trigger wheel, but the stud for the nut is still there not letting me spin the advance plate around so the pin will drop in and lock out will these two parts seperate i don't want to do any damage or should i just leave it where it is and pu a washer and nut back on the stud and tighten them up so they don't move would this work?if anyone knows what i should do fill free to reply. thanks kelly

badazzcougar
Gearhead

Posts: 132
From: Seattle
Registered: Oct 2001

posted 01-04-2002 05:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for badazzcougar        Reply w/Quote
mine did take a little coaxing with some wd 40 and a small hammer tapping lightly but it did go.

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 29200
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-04-2002 07:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker        Reply w/Quote
I am interested in those figures Mike. Share them with us if you can.
My cam is a 102 installed at about 100.25 or so.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Moneymaker Bio
US Class Nationals link

DRAGSTANG351
Journeyman

Posts: 71
From: FLORIDA
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 01-04-2002 08:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DRAGSTANG351        Reply w/Quote
well i got it figured out had to use some oil and a little tapping on the advance plate but it broke free and i spun it around and dropped pin in the hole and put everything back together and dropped dist back in, hopefully this will help my throttle response and rough idle problem thanks guy's for the tip and the help.


kelly

TomP
Gearhead

Posts: 6376
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99

posted 01-04-2002 10:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for TomP        Reply w/Quote
I like the locked out timing in my 427...i converted to a crank trigger and hollowed out the distributor and adapted the rotor right to the bottom shaft, cut the body flush with the upper bearing and adapted a big Ford cap... it starts easy and timing can be set without even starting the engine, the distributor simply phases the rotor distributes spark (odd,eh?) and drives the oil pump.

All times are ET (US)

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