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Author Topic:   Wilwood brakes?
Dave_C
Gearhead

Posts: 1069
From: Gadsden, Al
Registered: Aug 99

posted 12-20-2001 06:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dave_C   Click Here to Email Dave_C     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I know that some of you guys run Wilwood brakes on your cars (Alex, Rob).

I'm planning on the swap as this winter's project on my 69 Mustang bracket car. Along with a front end freshen up. I would like to do a complete front half rack and pinion setup, but it's not in the cards financially. (Just bought a new F-350 dually to tow it with and I'm broke).

So, I've decided to at least go ahead and toss the drum brakes. My normal track is 1/4, but the racing is on the 1/8, so plenty of room to stop. A few times per year I do go to other tracks that can get sort of hairy. Makes me want to be like Fred Flintstone when it's time to stop.

Going to go with the Wilwood setup and have a few questions.

1. What master cylinder should I use?

2. I will need a proportioning valving won't I?

3. What length and size braided stainless brake lines do I need? (front only) AN to pipe adapters to adapter the braided lines to the calipers and factory lines?

4. Should I get the HD brakes (over 2800 lbs) or the medium duty (up to 2800)? The calipers apppear to be the same, the difference is the thickness (and weight!) of the rotors. The car is currently ~3050 w driver, but the brakes, a glass hood in the near future, and getting rid of the radiator support, bumper braces and other things should reduce it to ~2850. It nevers sees 1/4 mile speeds so I'm thinking that I could get away with the medium duty.

5. Any other hardware that I will need?

I ask the first three questions as there is a trade show/vendor sale/auction here in a couple of weeks. It's mostly round track stuff, but they have some good deals on brake lines, proportioning valves, master cylinders, etc. I might get some of that stuff then.

Thanks,

David Cole


[This message has been edited by Dave_C (edited 12-20-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Dave_C (edited 12-20-2001).]

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 6590
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 12-20-2001 06:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have the medium duty brakes on my car and it stops great, even with the lead in it that pushes the weight up to 2900# at 135 mph. I dont have a proportioning valve. I use the big Wilwood master cylinder. Found out afterwords the Mopar MS is the same one, but cheaper. My lines are 18" I believe, and I used #3 to #4 fittings and #4 hoses. The calipers take #3 ends, but the #4 hoses are easier to find (at least that was what my stock car buddy told me when he ordered the lines for me, he also owns a machine shop).

I will measure the lines for length tomorrow. Plus I will look at the fittings and make sure I havent forgotten anything.I'm sure I overlooked something in your post, hopefully some one else will be able to answer waht I missed, or didnt answer very clearly.

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Moneymaker
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From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 12-20-2001 08:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I will echo most of Robs statements. I have the light weight Wilwoods on MM and they stop on a dime. The medium duty units will suit your needs just fine. Good stuff.
We found out early on that the same company supplies Wilwood, Strange, Lamb, Mopar Performance etc with master cylinders. Wilwood $160 +! Mopar (same exact casting number and all) $56 . Two styles offered. Angled resorvour and a straight one. We opted for the angled one. (same price).
I use an OEM (Kelsey Hayes) 65-66 Mustang/Shelby proportioning valve since it was already on the car and I have an NOS spare. I have installed the aftermarket adjustable ones on other cars and find them satisfactory. I highly recomend some kind of pressure differentiation valve.
Russell (now Edelbrock) offers pre made SS braided brake lines for early Mustangs. Front and rear. That is what is on MM. Stay with 1/8 steel tube brake line only for the rest. Anything larger will give you a soft pedal. All fittings are common SAE flare fittings and are readily available at decent parts stores.
Lastly, e-mail me direct and I'll give you the best price that I can on the Wilwood brakes.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
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Just Strokin
Gearhead

Posts: 754
From: Tuscaloosa, Alabama
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 12-21-2001 12:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Just Strokin   Click Here to Email Just Strokin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You can make your own brake lines if you are ambishious enough. I did for the drag car I built. I used #4 braided teflon, but if I did it again, I would use #3 hose. The #3 is closer in size to 3/16" tubing than #4. You get a slight pressure drop with the #4 at each wheel. Find you an Aeroquip catalog, not the racing hose catalog. It lists fittings and hoses in it. The aeroquip teflon hose I used was #2807 (infact, used this hose for tranny lines and fuels lines) #3 & #4 have a burst strength of 12000psi, max operating pressure is 3000psi. Hose ends fitting was 63-190600-3 or -4. Caliper fitting was 2021-2-3S (1/8-27 pipe x 3/8-24 37degree flare) or 2021-2-4S for #4. I used the same fitting for the line end but screwed it into a 3/16 inverted flare fitting with 1/8 female pipe threads.

The mopar master cylinger is offered thru chris altson's chassisworks also. Prices probably have gone up in the last 5 years, but use to be a good price. They have the adapter fittings for the master cylinder also.

If the car is street driven, you might want to consider residual pressure valves (2psi) so the pistons don't retract too far and you have to pump the peddle each time.

Sorry for getting long winded, but one last word of caution on brakes. If you cut your own steel tubing, make sure you DOUBLE flare the tubing. It is a stronger flare and less prone to splitting or leaking. And all brake lines you buy and currently on your car are double flared.

What trade show/vendor sale/auction and location are you talking about? I would like more info if possible.

[This message has been edited by Just Strokin (edited 12-21-2001).]

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Dave_C
Gearhead

Posts: 1069
From: Gadsden, Al
Registered: Aug 99

posted 12-21-2001 02:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dave_C   Click Here to Email Dave_C     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for the info guys.

The auction/trade show/vendor sale I was talking aabout is mostly round track, but they have some good deals.

Last years I saw premade brake lines in -3 AN in different lengths for like $5 each. The AN to pipe thread adpaters for them were $2. The dirt trackers buy them by the handfuls. Most of their brake stuff is available there also. Master cylinders etc.

Alex I will call you in Jan. about the brake kit. Have to finish paying Santa.

They trade show is mostly round/dirt track suppliers, but you can get some good deals on things like radiators, fuel system parts, brackets,brakes, safety equipment, various parts. The auction is used racing equipment. Mostly Chevy stuff with some Ford stuff. $20 admission fee for the whole weekend. It's indoors at the Fairgrounds exhibition hall, in Birmingham, so weather doesn't matter. Setup day is Thurs, Jan 10. The show lasts Fri-Sun. The auction lasts three days also. It's divided up by lots. Example. Lot # 1001 will be auctioned on Fri. (Jan 11) 2001 is Sat (Jan 12), Lot # 3001 will be Sunday. I will be there on Sat. I got a postcard from the auction company last month, so it's on. They had a website, but's it's not working. (was working last week) www.wico.net/~sentman. Charlie Sentman Auctions. They travel the county in the winter doing these things. If interested let me know and I will give directions. Lot's of guys come from TN, GA and MS for this.

Just Strokin: Notice that your are from Alabama also. Where? Do I know you? You might have seen my car:
http://home.earthlink.net/~racrcole/index.html

Later,

David Cole

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 27499
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 12-21-2001 03:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dave, on another note, is Hall Pantara still in business? I used to have a friend who worked there in the 70's and early 80's. He moved to Chicago, then moved back to the coast around 1985 or 86.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00 & '01
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SteveLaRiviere
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Posts: 45869
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 12-21-2001 07:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
is Hall Pantara still in business? I used to have a friend who worked there in the 70's and early 80's. He moved to Chicago, then moved back to the coast around 1985 or 86.

http://www.hallpantera.com/

------------------

'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L DOHC

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Dave_C
Gearhead

Posts: 1069
From: Gadsden, Al
Registered: Aug 99

posted 12-22-2001 09:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dave_C   Click Here to Email Dave_C     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just Strokin,

I found the correct web page for the auction/show.

http://www.sentmanauctions.com/page11.html

Alex,

I see Steve found the info on Hall Pantera for you. Looks really cool. Never had heard of them before. Toys like that are a touch out of my price range though. LOL

Later,

David Cole

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Dave_C
Gearhead

Posts: 1069
From: Gadsden, Al
Registered: Aug 99

posted 01-14-2002 10:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dave_C   Click Here to Email Dave_C     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ttt,

Question on the mopar master cylinder for you guys.

Did you use your original brake cyl pushrod? Or buy the Wilwood kit? Fabricate one?

What size bore did you use? They are available in 15/16", 1 1/32" and 1 1/16"

This weekend a buddy gave me a mopar master cylinder. It's almost the same as the Wilwwod/Mopar unit. The tank is a little different (one large lid over two compartments vs two screw on lids for the mopar), but otherwise it appears to be the same. It's from a mid-90's Dodge truck and has a 1 1/8" bore. I'm worried that might be too big.

If it's too large I have thought about just getting a regular cast iron m/c for a Mustang w manual disk/drum brakes. I know that would work and prob be less hassle (and cash) on fabbing up some brake lines. I will ditch the drum brake junction block and add a knob type proportioning valve in it's place.

This weekend I picked up the -3AN brake lines and adapter fittings at the show (along with a new Afco aluminum radiator). Got a good deal. Both lines and all four adapter fittings for $25 I'm just trying to get all my ducks in a row before I start this swap.

I will have plenty of time to collect these parts though. Going to be in rehab for a while. Having surgery on my shoulder this wednesday. Tore a rotator cuff in my left shoulder at work. Doc says 6-12 weeks recovery time.

Thanks for all the help.

David Cole

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Just Strokin
Gearhead

Posts: 754
From: Tuscaloosa, Alabama
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 01-14-2002 10:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Just Strokin   Click Here to Email Just Strokin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Must have missed you at the show. I was schocked when I got there Saturday and the admission was 20 each and I had a friend along with me. DUH!!!


I bought some of the fittings there, but no lines. The lines aren't DOT approved for street use.

I was reading on a site the other day that the smaller the bore of the master cylinder, the higher the pressure. And the larger the pistons are in the calipers, the higher the braking force.

I ran a 7/8 or 1" bore on the Tbird with wilwoods all the way around it and never had any braking problems. The master cylinder came from Chassisworks and was the mopar style. The only problem I had was the square orings don't let the pistons retract like round orings and the brakes would not release all the way sometimes, making it tuff to push in the pits or garage. I took both residual pressure valves out of the system even thought the MS was mounted lower than the calipers. The larger reservoir should be plumbed to the larger calipers, provided you are dual pistons in front and quad pistons in rear.

I ran a proportioning valve adjusted in the middle. Not sure if I really needed one or not.

I made a connector for the peddle rod and the master cylinder rod. Took a piece of 3/4" round stock and drilled and tapped it. Might not have been pretty nor light weight, but it worked.

[This message has been edited by Just Strokin (edited 01-14-2002).]

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Mpcoluv
Gearhead

Posts: 1341
From: Charlotte NC usa
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 01-15-2002 07:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mpcoluv   Click Here to Email Mpcoluv     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dave_C:
ttt,

Question on the mopar master cylinder for you guys.

Did you use your original brake cyl pushrod? Or buy the Wilwood kit? Fabricate one?

What size bore did you use? They are available in 15/16", 1 1/32" and 1 1/16"

This weekend a buddy gave me a mopar master cylinder. It's almost the same as the Wilwwod/Mopar unit. The tank is a little different (one large lid over two compartments vs two screw on lids for the mopar), but otherwise it appears to be the same. It's from a mid-90's Dodge truck and has a 1 1/8" bore. I'm worried that might be too big.

If it's too large I have thought about just getting a regular cast iron m/c for a Mustang w manual disk/drum brakes. I know that would work and prob be less hassle (and cash) on fabbing up some brake lines. I will ditch the drum brake junction block and add a knob type proportioning valve in it's place.

This weekend I picked up the -3AN brake lines and adapter fittings at the show (along with a new Afco aluminum radiator). Got a good deal. Both lines and all four adapter fittings for $25 I'm just trying to get all my ducks in a row before I start this swap.

I will have plenty of time to collect these parts though. Going to be in rehab for a while. Having surgery on my shoulder this wednesday. Tore a rotator cuff in my left shoulder at work. Doc says 6-12 weeks recovery time.

Thanks for all the help.

David Cole


I have a WIlwood master on my street '69 with 4 wheel disks.
I have the 1 1/16 bore.
You will (or at least I had to) modify your old pushrod. I shortened mine by about 1/4" and reshaped the end and reduced it's diameter with a bench grinder. It's trial and error.
It DOES take a lot of pedal pressure to stop with this master.


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Just Strokin
Gearhead

Posts: 754
From: Tuscaloosa, Alabama
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 01-15-2002 08:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Just Strokin   Click Here to Email Just Strokin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Chassisworks has inverted flare adapters for the Mopar sytle master cylinder. They use to be like $12 for a set.

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Moneymaker
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From: Lyons, IL, USA
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posted 01-15-2002 01:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A 1 1/8 bore master will give you slower response and a mushy pedal compared to a 1 1/16 or smaller.
We used the Mustang rod and shortened it.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
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NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 2494
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 01-15-2002 06:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dave_C:
Do you think you will reduce your racecar's weight much with the new front brake setup?

Ryan

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 6590
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 01-15-2002 06:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ryan Wilke:
Dave_C:
Do you think you will reduce your racecar's weight much with the new front brake setup?

Ryan


When I changed mine, it took over 30lbs off the nose of the car (15 lbs per side). And it was all unsprung weight, and thats the hardest to lose.

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Dave_C
Gearhead

Posts: 1069
From: Gadsden, Al
Registered: Aug 99

posted 01-15-2002 07:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dave_C   Click Here to Email Dave_C     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The weight reduction will be nice, but I'm mainly doing it to be able to stop.

My primary track is only 15 mins away. It is a full 1/4, but all the racing is 1/8, so there is plenty of room to stop.

But there are a couple of other tracks that I go to several times each season that are very short. Makes me nervous. The car will stop, but I have to be on the brakes very hard. The guys with disk brakes don't have a problem.

Later,

David Cole

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Just Strokin
Gearhead

Posts: 754
From: Tuscaloosa, Alabama
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 01-15-2002 09:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Just Strokin   Click Here to Email Just Strokin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dave

I would consider a smaller bore master cylinder then. This would increase your brake pressure and require less peddle pressure.

Larry

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 2494
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 01-16-2002 10:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dave_C:
I'm surprized about your braking concern and now I'm confused. I always thought that the usual/main reason for switching from drums to discs was to loose weight....

From a braking standpoint, it seems to me that the drum pkg has more "brake shoe surface area" so it should be as capable or better at stopping a drag car - unless you are making passes so often that the brakes can't cool down sufficiently between passes.
Sure, for roundy-rounder's or roadrace cars, drums get hot and stay hot, then start to fade from the heat...so those guys benefit from discs because they cool faster than drums... and of course drums are heavier for those guys too and they'd also like to loose weight or put it in a "better location" just like us straight-track guys.

Where am I 'missing the boat' here?

Ryan

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Just Strokin
Gearhead

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From: Tuscaloosa, Alabama
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 01-16-2002 02:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Just Strokin   Click Here to Email Just Strokin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Biggest two items are weight and the ability to cool quicker than drum brakes (good for all forms of racing and street). Also, drum self adjusting drum brakes then to 'drag' the shoes against the drum.

My .02, anyway.

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 6590
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 01-16-2002 04:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
When I bought my car it had factory drum brakes on all four corners and was running 11 ohs. It stopped ok, but not real great. Now, running 10 ohs, with the Wilwoods on all four corners, it stops quicker now than it did then even though it was running slower. So, in mu opinion, the disc brakes stop a ton better than my drum brakes did or ever could.

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 2494
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
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posted 01-18-2002 09:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dave_C,
I know this is a change in the subject, but Ya know what? - I STILL drool excessively whenever I look at pics of your Racer!

So tell me about your cage...
-- Was it a kit or home-grown?

-- Would you make any changes to it if you were to do it over again?

-- Do you have a 'swing-out' drivers side brace?

Thanks again for your hep, Ryan

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Dave_C
Gearhead

Posts: 1069
From: Gadsden, Al
Registered: Aug 99

posted 01-18-2002 10:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dave_C   Click Here to Email Dave_C     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ryan Wilke:
Dave_C,
I know this is a change in the subject, but Ya know what? - I STILL drool excessively whenever I look at pics of your Racer!

Thanks

So tell me about your cage...
-- Was it a kit or home-grown?

The cage started out as an 8 pt roll bar kit form S & W Race Cars http://www.swracecars.com/
Here is a pic of the roll bar before the backhalf job: http://home.earthlink.net/~racrcole/_uimages/rollcage.JPG

When the car was backhalved it was changed to a 12 pt cage by adding the roof halo, A pillar down bars and rear X bracing. Didn't buy a kit to do this, just added on with the correct diameter tubing.

-- Would you make any changes to it if you were to do it over again?

Maybe a few minor details, nothing major. Things like the ladder bar crossmember needs more of a dip in the center to clear the driveshaft. It's close enough that I can't jack the car up by the frame and let the rear end hang down. If I do, the driveshaft hits the crossmember.

-- Do you have a 'swing-out' drivers side brace?

I bought one from S&W when I bought the roll bar kit. Turned out I didn't need to use it. When the door bar was placed low enough to clear the inside door handle it was low enough to get in and out with no problems and is still high enough to be legal. Didn't need the swing out kit. Sold it a year or so later. I'm a big guy and can get in/out with no problems. If the door bar had been over the door handle it would have been too high, didn't look right. Look at this pic and you can see what I mean:
http://home.earthlink.net/~racrcole/_uimages/inside1.jpg

Thanks again for your hep, Ryan



Later,

David Cole

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Ryan Wilke
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Posts: 2494
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 01-18-2002 11:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dave_C,

....I wish & hope is that my '69 racer 'grows' into as nice a racecar as you have 'raised' yours into!!

Ryan

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Just Strokin
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Posts: 754
From: Tuscaloosa, Alabama
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posted 01-18-2002 12:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Just Strokin   Click Here to Email Just Strokin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Kid V

if you had to re-buy your DB kits and axles for the rear, would you go with the 2.36 or 2.5 offset and maybe the new style big bearings?

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kid vishus
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Posts: 6590
From: middle of NC
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posted 01-18-2002 01:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I doubt it. There are a couple of things I would change if I were to do it over, but they dont have anything to do with the brakes or bearing size. I would have bought a different carrier, a big bearing, so I ocld put bigger axles in it, and I owuld have shortened the housing some more so I could put bigger tires under it (something like a 33x16).

The brakes were such an easy swap, and the car stops so good now, plus I see no advantage in my case for different offset.

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