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Author
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Topic: What motor would you rather have; 428, or 460?
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scorpian
Gearhead Posts: 102
From: youngstown,ohio u.s.a
Registered: Dec 2000
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posted 12-13-2001 11:19 PM
   
ok heres my situation. i have a 66 fairlane i am building into a dragster. my question is what engine would you guys think would be better. a 67 428, 69 429 or a 70 460. i will be building whatever engine i get up, but what do you guys think would be a better foundation? thanks mike
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 8826
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 12-13-2001 11:35 PM
460, 385 series. period.  SteveW
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 12-13-2001 11:44 PM
460 by far is much easier and cheaper to build. ------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00 & '01
Fleet of FoMoCo products
Moneymaker Bio
US Class Nationals link
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badazzcougar
Gearhead Posts: 132
From: Seattle
Registered: Oct 2001
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posted 12-14-2001 12:09 AM
Ive had all the above in various vehicle. The FE series I finally gave up on and sold off my FE powered vehicles a few months ago. They can be built for power but it gets expensive and unless your'e into self abuse I'd avoid them. Crappy oiling systems will make even a decent motor unbearable. Theyve got their good points but IMHO the bad points do that series in. Parts are expensive and the hassle isnt worth it unless your into a racing class that require a stock motor type for your year.
385's on the other hand are awesome engines. Decent if not perfect oiling, a head port design that is unbeatable and parts availability the FE only wishes it had.
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Dr. Who
Gearhead Posts: 164
From: Redwood City, Ca.
Registered: Sep 2001
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posted 12-14-2001 12:28 AM
I still have charge of $ome FE'$ runnin at the drags and I hold my breath every pass  , but Butcher's 460 is a thumper and has lasted through some events that would've killed an FE. I'll catch flack for this but the truth is an FE is a neat old motor but not very fast in todays traffic. The 460 "is" todays traffic  !
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Rory McNeil
Gearhead Posts: 1542
From: Surrey, B.C. Canada
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 12-14-2001 03:55 AM
Sorry, but for me its the "old reliable" 428 all the way. The 428 thats in my Fairmont has a stock short block other than forged pistons & a solid lifter cam, has stock CJ heads, a old 780 vac. sec. Holley on a OE Ford intake, junkyard Duraspark with a MSD 6T. I built it in 94, freshed it twice since, good enough for low 10`s @130 in a 3100 lb car, shifting at 6200 rpm.None of the similar 429-460`s around here at least are going any quicker. Now if your gonna go for ported or aftermarket heads, a big roller cam, or high RPM`s, that may be a different matter, but I won`t be switching any time soon.As for cost, well I was lucky enough to have bought up enough 428 CJ stuff to last me a while. I bet I don`t have more than $4000. Canadian in my 428.(carb to pan)------------------
78 Fairmont 428 4 speed 10.20@130mph
80 Fairmont 302 5 speed 12.8@105mph
85 Mustang NHRA Stocker under construction, 302 5 speed
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ZEATER
Gearhead Posts: 173
From: Mount Pleasant,IA,USA
Registered: Aug 2001
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posted 12-14-2001 10:50 AM
Size being a factor, it is easier to squeeze a 428 into a 69 or 70 Mustang. There is always a 427 stroked with a 428 crank to get both torque and high rpms.
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Butch Jennings
Gearhead Posts: 624
From: No. California
Registered: Apr 2000
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posted 12-14-2001 11:47 AM
That's a no-brainer for me...LOL...been there, done that! Self abuse is a perfect description of what I went through with my last 6 FE engines. It was fine when the car ran 10.20's, when I made the effort to run 9's with it I started breaking it. I went through 6 engines (and way more money than I care to admit to my wife) to get it to run 9.95 and 9.98 to get my license. I realize I was not using the "good" FE blocks for the last few engines, but I could get ahold of an SVO 460 block for the same money a good std bore sideoiler block would cost and I've not broken a production 460 block yet. Bottom line for me is that I can run almost as fast on the motor with my stock stroke 460 as I did with my killer FE on nitrous and keep it running where the FE was like glass, and with a small shot of nitrous (150 hp) it will run mid 9's all day and stay alive. For the same money I'd have to put into an FE to keep it alive at 700 hp I can build a 500+ cubic inch 385 series engine that will live for years at well over 700 hp...I know if I stroked mine to 4.150 or 4.300 from the stock 3.85 stroke that it will run 9's all year on the motor and never see more than 7000 rpm. I'm sold on the 460....the only FE engine I own now is in my truck and given the right opportunity I'll swap it over to 460 too. ------------------
Butch
460 powered 1967 Comet Cyclone
10.271 @ 130.069
Butcher's Home Page
"Friends don't let friends drive Chevys"
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Rory McNeil
Gearhead Posts: 1542
From: Surrey, B.C. Canada
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 12-14-2001 12:30 PM
I`m not using the "good" FE block either, rather a 67 TBird 428 block, with a 1U crank & 3/8`s C7AE-B rods (ARP bolts)Like I said, its been running mid-low 10`s for 8 years now, without so much as fouling a spark plug.Maybe its because I don`t play with nitrous that I have had good sucsess with my FEs.------------------
78 Fairmont 428 4 speed 10.20@130mph
80 Fairmont 302 5 speed 12.8@105mph
85 Mustang NHRA Stocker under construction, 302 5 speed
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Butch Jennings
Gearhead Posts: 624
From: No. California
Registered: Apr 2000
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posted 12-14-2001 12:45 PM
How much does your fairmont weigh Rory?------------------
Butch
460 powered 1967 Comet Cyclone
10.271 @ 130.069
Butcher's Home Page
"Friends don't let friends drive Chevys"
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Dr. Who
Gearhead Posts: 164
From: Redwood City, Ca.
Registered: Sep 2001
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posted 12-14-2001 02:24 PM
To be fair Butcher ran his 456" FE for 3 years (many many passes) at 10 teens with the juice in a 3500 pounder and never had any problems, it's just when we put it into the 9s that the real trouble started, the same thing has happened to lots of other FE guys with and without nitrous. It's got so if I see an FE car runnin 9s I go get a broom.
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 12-14-2001 02:30 PM
Did somebody say the "N" word?  ------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00 & '01
Fleet of FoMoCo products
Moneymaker Bio
US Class Nationals link
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chips67
Gearhead Posts: 651
From: louisville, ky, usa
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 12-14-2001 06:55 PM
i like the 460 too. ive seen what they can do at the track, and i love the one in my 79 f150. well over 400k now, had over 200k when i bought it 9 years ago. only problem ive ever had was when the roll pin on the distributor gear sheared off 2 years ago. burns a quart of oil every week because the valve seals are about gone, it does it at startup. the motor is outliving all its gaskets and with 2.73 gears/c6 will still lay a patch from street light to street light. this is a great motor, period. if i ever get done with my 67 and 49 i plan to build this f150/460 right and keep it as long as it will have me.------------------
67 coupe, 650dp and rpm intake on 5.0 with afr 165 heads, 4 speed, 4.11's.....best so far is [email protected] in 1/8 mile with 1.79 60ft. time.
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Rory McNeil
Gearhead Posts: 1542
From: Surrey, B.C. Canada
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 12-15-2001 04:54 AM
Butch, my all steel, full interior (stock dash, door panels,full carpeting, 2 seats)Fairmont weighs 3100 lbs, ready to go, with 4 gallons of gas. I think if I get an aluminum water pump,a glass hood,a lexan windshield (my stock ones cracked) & maybe pull the pass. seat, & look for some small items to lighten up or remove, I could get it down to 3000lbs or hopefully a bit lighter. If the new Edelbrock Victor FE ever comes out, I think that & maybe a new pair of slicks (mine are 4 years old) may squeeze a 9.9 out of my old dinosaur FE. I suppose some head work would help too, but I want a 9 with the stock CJ heads.------------------
78 Fairmont 428 4 speed 10.20@130mph
80 Fairmont 302 5 speed 12.8@105mph
85 Mustang NHRA Stocker under construction, 302 5 speed
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 12-15-2001 12:13 PM
Hey I love FE's. I grew up on 289's and FE's. Both have become increasingly more expensive to build unless you have a cache of parts harbored away like Rory does. Today it is much more practical to build a big inch 302 or 351 than a 289 or a 460 in place of an FE. It just makes more sense and you can make about 25% more power for half the money. ------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00 & '01
Fleet of FoMoCo products
Moneymaker Bio
US Class Nationals link
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Rory McNeil
Gearhead Posts: 1542
From: Surrey, B.C. Canada
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 12-15-2001 12:38 PM
Yeah, Alex, maybe you are right.I guess I don`t really consider how much some of this stuff I`ve had for 20+ years would cost nowadays. I`ve still got a pair of 428 CJ heads (C8OE-N) that I bought for $125. back in 76! I remember ordering NEW LeMans rods from Ford for $27.each in the late 70`s.Hell, back in 79, I bought a 69 "R" code Mach1 less engine, but with the big spline Toploader, "N"case 3.91 31 spline Trac-lock, & tons of new parts (and a pretty decent car, too) for $750. In 80 I bought a 70 "R" code Mach1, with a fresh 428CJ, fresh CJ C6, 3.91 31 spline "N" 9",Shaker,in really nice shape, except the drivers 1/4 panel was mangeled badly, due to the studs snapping off, & a L60-15 tire set free.I did a minor resto on the car, drove & raced it for 6 years (12.4@112mph,good traction eh?)Sold it for $9100 in 86, it passed thru a few owners over the years, last guy paid $28,500. Man, I wish I had a time machine set to the mid 70`s & a suitcase full of cash!! ------------------
78 Fairmont 428 4 speed 10.20@130mph
80 Fairmont 302 5 speed 12.8@105mph
85 Mustang NHRA Stocker under construction, 302 5 speed
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Rory McNeil
Gearhead Posts: 1542
From: Surrey, B.C. Canada
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 12-15-2001 12:46 PM
Actually, if Mike (scorpian) told us what his plans & ETS hoped for with his Fairlane were, that might make his decision a lot easier. If he only plans on running low 12`s or hi 11`s, it wouldn`t take much from any of his choices. Mike, when you mentioned the 67 428, do you already have it, if not how much would it cost you? I don`t think anyone would disagree that a FE will fit better, they came with them from the factory, headers are readily available, plus they are lighter than a 460. Now, if Mike has his sights on 8`s or 9`s, well even I would have to go with the 385 series on that one!------------------
78 Fairmont 428 4 speed 10.20@130mph
80 Fairmont 302 5 speed 12.8@105mph
85 Mustang NHRA Stocker under construction, 302 5 speed
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 12-15-2001 12:50 PM
I totaly agree Rory. If I had only half the old Mustangs and other FoMoCo muscle cars that have passed through my hands over the years I would be a VERY wealthy person right now.
Even though I have THOUSANDS of 289 parts it still costs me a small fortune to build a good SS motor these days. About the only thing that I still use that you could call "original" 289 is the crank and cylinder heads. Hell, with the Danny Bee belt drive, I don't even use a 289 HIPO timing cover anymore and I have a dozen of them. I have two fully machined and sleeved 289 HP blocks that I will probably sell to restorers because the A-4 block is so much better. ------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00 & '01
Fleet of FoMoCo products
Moneymaker Bio
US Class Nationals link
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TomP
Gearhead Posts: 5761
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99
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posted 12-17-2001 10:03 PM
Its pretty obvious... the 428... the car is a 60's Fairlane, no? 460's belong in 70's vehicles... it's like a natural. I mean,hey, you want cheap or classy? If it's cheap.... put a nitrous 5.0L in there... or (put that stick down) a small block Chev,  you can buy a rebuilt one for $499 at 7-11 i think. Then you have the "true" cheapness... i have seen guys "save money" by putting a 460 into a 390 powered car and spent zillions changing the tranny, mounts, headers and everything to make it fit. It adds 100 lbs to the car and usually won't result in it being any faster unless the 460 motor has some serious grunt. Stock 460's are no match for even stock 428's. As for problems, 460's break rods and seize cams,lose a pushrod and you lose all oil pressure, they sure aren't foolproof. It depends on power levels, 500hp a stock 390-428 is fine, wanna make 700 and you are pushing things. Oiling system is fine with very minor work. The other thing about cheapness is thats all lost once you've decided to put $5000 worth of gold plated Webers on the engine you bought for $250 because you couldn't afford $300 for the engine you really wanted.
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Dr. Who
Gearhead Posts: 164
From: Redwood City, Ca.
Registered: Sep 2001
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posted 12-17-2001 11:26 PM
I think if I were starting a 60s Fairlane with or without an existing drivetrain I'd go with Alex's suggestion and build a small block, shucks the header room alone would be worth the change, then there's the parts, there must be better than a 30 to 1 vs the FE there, the recipricating weight, the dead weight, and you can have one with the same internal displacement as the 428.
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 12-18-2001 12:27 PM
Amen Doc. ------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00 & '01
Fleet of FoMoCo products
Moneymaker Bio
US Class Nationals link
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scorpian
Gearhead Posts: 102
From: youngstown,ohio u.s.a
Registered: Dec 2000
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posted 12-18-2001 12:30 PM
thank you all for your suggestions. i will let you all know the route i go. thanks again mike. stay tuned
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Gary
Gearhead Posts: 726
From: Sarasota, Fla. USA
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 12-21-2001 09:19 PM
So far I love my yawning 460 to 528cid. I have mine bored .060, Scat 4.300 crank, 6.800 egale rods with J&E pistons. Engine doesn't seem to have to work hard at all to make serious power. If you use rocker covers like mine (low profile)you still can use the Crane Golds and be able to change plugs easliey.
I can change my plugs in 15 mins. or less with one box wrench on a plug socket. Cake!
Engine cold of course BTW, I bought my 1969 460 for 150.00 bucks and got a Lincoln Mark 111 to go with it..lol
In took the engine and sent the car to the scarp yard and got 75.00 back. Not a bad deal for a running 460 complete [This message has been edited by Gary (edited 12-21-2001).]
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