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Author Topic:   cleveland dead!!
70coupe
Gearhead

Posts: 346
From: Toronto,Ontario,Canada
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 09-29-2001 09:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 70coupe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Was at the track today and about 2/3 down the track I saw a huge plume of white smoke. Pulled over to the side and after investigating a little, I though maybe I blew a head gasket. After the car was towed to the pits I decided to remove the valve covers, one rocker was quite loose so I removed the intake. Bit and pieces everywhere! Compression rings,oil rings,bits of the block,major bent valve in #8 cylinder, almost 90 degrees. Will investigate some more tomorrow. The retainers were in tact so it didnt drop a valve. Wonder what happened? I only spin the car to 6100 and the rod ends had ARP bolts!

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 32961
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 09-29-2001 09:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sorry to hear that, that really sucks.

What were you using for valves?

If you say the stock multi-groove two piece valves, there you go.

------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L DOHC

The terrorist may have killed 6,398 Americans,
but there are 281,000,000 of us left, and WE'RE PISSED!!!

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70coupe
Gearhead

Posts: 346
From: Toronto,Ontario,Canada
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 09-29-2001 10:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 70coupe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I was using single groove manley valves and 10 degree retainers. The retainers are still in tact so it didnt drop a valve.

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Gary Ferringer
Journeyman

Posts: 59
From: Kennerdell,Pa.
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 09-29-2001 10:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gary Ferringer   Click Here to Email Gary Ferringer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If I remember right, Steve, he said that he had one piece stainless valves with 10 degree locks, and retainers.

Sounds as though you went into some pretty severe detonation. I hope that you didn't decide to go with more timing without running some good gas in it.

Thats too bad, I hate to hear of someone having troubles like that. Let us know about the full damage report. My bottom end is almost identical to yours, except I am still running the stock rod bolts. It is probably just a matter of time for me.

------------------
'85 Capri
Cleveland powered
carburetted
6.88 1/8th
@95.75 MPH
1.45 60 ft.

[This message has been edited by Gary Ferringer (edited 09-30-2001).]

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Clevo377
Gearhead

Posts: 312
From: Blackburn, Victoria, Australia
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 09-29-2001 10:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Clevo377   Click Here to Email Clevo377     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sorry to hear what happened, I've been through the exact same thing, White smoke...thought it was a head gasket...only to find many bits and pieces (all broken)

If you work out what happened, please let us know.

Paul

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70coupe
Gearhead

Posts: 346
From: Toronto,Ontario,Canada
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 09-29-2001 10:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 70coupe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Gary, the compression is 11:1. I run 3/4 94 supreme mixed with 1/4 112. This should give me around 98.5-99 octane. Is that not enough with 37 or 38 total? If not,theres my problem.

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Butch Jennings
Gearhead

Posts: 577
From: No. California
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 09-29-2001 11:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Butch Jennings   Click Here to Email Butch Jennings     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

I personally wouldn't run an 11:1 motor hard with anything less than a 50:50 mix....I used to run VP 112, 116 when I was running nitrous, in my 10:1 FE motors at the track, I never messed with mixing fuel at all....no scientific data to back that up, just my opinion for what it's worth.

------------------
Butch
460 powered 1967 Comet Cyclone
10.271 @ 130.069
Butcher's Home Page
"Friends don't let friends drive Chevys"

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 4357
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 09-30-2001 12:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sounds to me like it pulled the head off a valve.

How old are your valves? Manley had some quality problems a couple of years ago.

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Gary Ferringer
Journeyman

Posts: 59
From: Kennerdell,Pa.
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 09-30-2001 08:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gary Ferringer   Click Here to Email Gary Ferringer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree with Butch. If you insist on running pump gas, it must be 50/50 at the very least. Unfortunately that is a very expensive lesson that people learn the hard way.

The only Cleveland related engine failure that I have ever had involved trying to run pump gas with Moroso octane booster. I still have the piston at home with the 1.73" diameter hole in it where the head of the exhaust valve smashed its way through it. It also smashed a hole in the cylinder wall,destroyed the head, and bent the rod. I am still using the block, but with a sleeve in it.

Usually, when a cylinder wall splits, or heads come off of valves, it is detonation related. The valve head very rarely ever pulls off. If it comes off, it was the result of very heavy detonation.

As an example, the 2.3 liter turbo engine that is in my Dad's car ran into this problem a couple weeks ago. The thermostat ceased to work on the last run (I will never buy a Stant brand again). By the time he crossed the finish, the engine was at 230 degrees, 240 by the time it got to the pits. We got the thing home, and noticed water in the oil. Ok, head gasket, right? Wrong!! A 3" long split in the cylinder wall. The thing detonated so badly at that high a temperature, that it actually left marks in the cylinder walls, and fire ring of the head gasket that looked as though they were put there with a ball pein hammer. It was a real shame too, the thing on the previous run ran an 8.14 in the 1/8 mile on the brakes so hard that it lost 14 miles per hour as compared with what it normally ran.( he was dialed in at 8.22, and lost, but got into the second chance bracket.) The thing was right on the verge of 7.80's, which was the goal that I set when I built the engine. Now it is junk, all because of a $10 thermostat. He is going to put a 302 in the Pinto next year, but that doesn't mean that it can't be resurrected in my car sometime in the future.

Well, its time for me to go racing, I hope to have better luck than that today.

------------------
'85 Capri
Cleveland powered
carburetted
6.88 1/8th
@95.75 MPH
1.45 60 ft.

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clevelandstyle
Gearhead

Posts: 614
From: Connersville, IN
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 09-30-2001 09:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for clevelandstyle     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Man, Coupe. That sucks. I've done it too, but I always blamed the stock valves. I don't run those any more.

[This message has been edited by clevelandstyle (edited 09-30-2001).]

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 4357
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 09-30-2001 09:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Ferringer:

Usually, when a cylinder wall splits, or heads come off of valves, it is detonation related. The valve head very rarely ever pulls off. If it comes off, it was the result of very heavy detonation.



So what I am hearing is, when I split cylinder walls earlier this year, and last year it was due to detonation? I dont buy it. I only had 11.5-1 compression, on alcohol with 40 degrees of timing. The first one that I split this year only had 10.4-1 compression, on alcohol with 40 degrees of timing. And when I had the head of a valve come off it was due to detonation? Wrong. That motor was 12-1, on alcohol with 38 degrees of timing. And yes, the geometry was set up correctly.

I may not be a "professional" engine builder, but I do know how to spot detonation when I tear a motor down.

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Gary Ferringer
Journeyman

Posts: 59
From: Kennerdell,Pa.
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 09-30-2001 09:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gary Ferringer   Click Here to Email Gary Ferringer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Actually Kid, I was using that as examples of my experiences. I haven't the slightest clue as to what you are running, nor do I care. I am far from a "professional" engine builder myself, but in any circumstances in which I have run into that sort of damage, it has been detonation related. Sorry to question your obvious wealth of knowledge.

------------------
'85 Capri
Cleveland powered
carburetted
6.88 1/8th
@95.75 MPH
1.45 60 ft.

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 4357
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 10-01-2001 06:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
First of all, I dont have a wealth of knowledge. That should be obvious with the amount of stuff I break. But it seems like whenever I answer something based on my personal experiances, someone comes along and contradicts everything I have said and discredits me. My stuff runs hard, and I never seem to get any credit for it.

I am under a lot of stress in my life right now, and perhaps I took your reply too personal, for that I am sorry. Might be a good time for me to take a break for awhile.

See ya

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Clevo377
Gearhead

Posts: 312
From: Blackburn, Victoria, Australia
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 10-01-2001 07:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Clevo377   Click Here to Email Clevo377     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I blame my grenade on a bad spring causing valve float. You see the spring decided to introduce the valve to the piston. They met and it was love at first sight. The relationship did not last long though, for after having a passionate kiss the valve got all bet out of shape. The piston then did'nt apppreciate the valve moving in so soon and (having a low tolerence) smacked the %&#$ out of the valve, to the point of the valve totally lost it's head, wanting to become one with the piston. Unfortunately the laws of physics do not permit this (in any state) and the piston was thus destroyed. (if only it had considered the consequences of it's actions). The real tragety here is the other family members that got caught up in the whole affair, Rod, Cam, (and others) all suffered. Oh, and the house was destroyed also.

Paul

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70coupe
Gearhead

Posts: 346
From: Toronto,Ontario,Canada
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 10-01-2001 07:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 70coupe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I appreciate your input "kid" along with most other people. For the most part we are all grease monkeys but not of the professional kind or we would'nt be asking for advice on this forum.

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Gary Ferringer
Journeyman

Posts: 59
From: Kennerdell,Pa.
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 10-01-2001 09:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gary Ferringer   Click Here to Email Gary Ferringer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Kid, I think that you did take what I was saying the wrong way. You related your experiences, and I did the same. They were not the exact same experiences, but then this whole game of racing, and engine building would be awfully boring if they were. I approach things differently than you might, but the results are the same; good running, fast Ford race cars. That's the name of the game right?? .

I was pretty angry last night over your comments, but it was just a misunderstanding. I'm not sure how you might feel you don't get any respect. You have the attention of the entire board, looks as though you aren't doing to badly in your racing endeavors, despite a few engine failures, and the ultimate compliment: a month of having you car grace the homepage of Moneymaker's website. Sure sounds like respect to me .

------------------
'85 Capri
Cleveland powered
carburetted
6.88 1/8th
@95.75 MPH
1.45 60 ft.

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