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Author Topic:   Total Seal Gapless "TOP" Rings...
n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 1511
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 09-28-2001 11:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Total Seal has come up with a gapless top ring.

I've heard mixed reviews about gapless 2nd rings... most saying they are fine until cylinder pressure gets really high.

(the argument goes...)
With gapless 2nd ring a bit of cylinder pressure gets past the gap in the top ring, only to be caught by the 2nd ring, which does NOT allow it to escape. This builds pressure between the two rings, upsetting the top, leaving all the sealing to the bottom ring. High cylinder pressure engines are supposed to suffer from this more than "street" type engines.
A piston that has a pressure groove cut around its diameter between the rings is supposed to help.

All the dyno tests I've seen show no horsepower loss with gapless rings, and possibly a few HP gain.

The new gapless TOP ring by Total Seal would theoretically cure this... question is, does it really work? If so, then why has it not come out until now?

Anybody here tried a set of the gapless top rings? I've tried the gapless 2nd rings with decent results....

Their "independent" dyno tests seem interesting...

Alex, you don't have to come on and call anyone who tries gapless rings complete idiots... We all know you can get almost zero leakdown with conventional rings. If you want to share on --HOW-- to get zero leakdown with conventional rings... we're all ears.

You can check out Total Seal's propaganda at:
www.totalseal.com

Thanks!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 4357
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 09-28-2001 08:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
All I know is that a top sprint car engine builder here says the gapless second ring actually loses HP over a good gapped secondary ring on the dyno. He claims that at rpm, the gapless ring will actually flutter in the groove causing excessive leakdown at speed. He claimed static leakdown tests can be manipulated so that darn near anything will show 1% or less leakage. He refuses to use them (gapless rings) in any of his high dollar sprint car motors or any of his good drag race engines.

[This message has been edited by kid vishus (edited 09-28-2001).]

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jkilroy
Gearhead

Posts: 1703
From: Vicksburg, MS
Registered: Dec 99

posted 09-29-2001 01:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jkilroy   Click Here to Email jkilroy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't think anyone is going to call you an idiot for trying gapless rings. It is simple physics, combustion pressure makes power, and the more pressure you keep on top of the piston the more power you will make. I do agree that static leak down tests can be made to look fantastic, so could the stats that Totalseal puts on there web site.

The truth of the matter, concerning who uses what speed part and why, is that the vast majority of people don't do actual controlled scientific testing to independantly prove the value of a new technology. For every high profile engine builder that says a part is no good, you can find another that will say it is the best thing since sliced bread. The guys that really do test this stuff, people like Nascar and Trans Am engine builders, they aren't going to tell you because they get paid to know these things.

------------------
Jay Kilroy
68' Fastback GT 390
"No such thing as a cam thats too big"

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19686
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 10-01-2001 08:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We lost power with a gapless second ring in our superstock 289. We have tried a gapless top that we "created" ourselves also with no success. We make the BEST power (ok gang, get you note pads out as I am giving up another Alex secret) with a very thin "dykes" top and gas porting. We also use a "special" width second ring that is NOT gapless. We have applied this technology to other engines with the same results. ALL GOOD!

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00 & '01
Fleet of FoMoCo products
Moneymaker Bio
US Class Nationals link

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Butch Jennings
Gearhead

Posts: 577
From: No. California
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 10-01-2001 10:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Butch Jennings   Click Here to Email Butch Jennings     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Alex,

How many passes is the dykes/gasport deal good for between re-ring jobs? I know it's a great way to make power, I've never been able to get a straight answer out of anyone as to the lifetime of the combo.

Thanks

------------------
Butch
460 powered 1967 Comet Cyclone
10.271 @ 130.069
Butcher's Home Page
"Friends don't let friends drive Chevys"

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jkilroy
Gearhead

Posts: 1703
From: Vicksburg, MS
Registered: Dec 99

posted 10-01-2001 10:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jkilroy   Click Here to Email jkilroy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Is there any reason to gas port pistons in a motor that will see a fair amount of mileage between rebuilds? Or a motor that will run regular pump gas? I would expect that carbon would quickly build up and clog the ports in a street motor, and I would also expect that the ports would act as signigicant 'hot-spots' increasing the risk of detonation. This may not be the case but do seem to be possible downsides.

Has anyone ever thought of just running more than three rings like in a diesel? I would think you could stack in three or even four *thin* rings on top of the oil ring. Would the drag created offset any sealing advantage? Alex, how close to the piston crown do you run your top ring? I would expect pretty close, seeing you don't run N2O or a blower.

------------------
Jay Kilroy
68' Fastback GT 390
"No such thing as a cam thats too big"

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19686
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 10-02-2001 02:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Butch, we leak the motor every 30 passes. No appreciable loss at all ever. I get 100 to 120 passes before we freshen the motor every year. When we take it down, we could almost reuse the rings. It's all about precision machining, a perfectly round bore and a true 90 degree bore to crank relationship. My motors (short blocks) spin so freely that you would think that there are no rings in them at all. I would highly recomend that you consider doing up your pistons and getting a good ring package on your next freshen up.
Jay, years ago a company called Pedrick came out with a 4 ring deal and with a 5 piece oil ring. The seal was phenominal but we soon found out that the drag cost us more HP than we gained with the seal. Diesels don't spin any RPM remember. I don't really recomend gas porting for street engines because of the costs associated. Carbon would not be an issue. Wear would. We have made a little more power with a two ring gas port combo ( I mean very little) than our current three ring. the down side was a maximum of 75 passes before we wore the rings out. The slight gain was not worth the added expense.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00 & '01
Fleet of FoMoCo products
Moneymaker Bio
US Class Nationals link

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Butch Jennings
Gearhead

Posts: 577
From: No. California
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 10-02-2001 07:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Butch Jennings   Click Here to Email Butch Jennings     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Thanks Alex! That's exactly the kind of info I was looking for

------------------
Butch
460 powered 1967 Comet Cyclone
10.271 @ 130.069
Butcher's Home Page
"Friends don't let friends drive Chevys"

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19686
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 10-05-2001 03:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
But Butch, do friends let friends drive 63 Plymouth 4dr Max Wedge taxi cabs? LOL

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00 & '01
Fleet of FoMoCo products
Moneymaker Bio
US Class Nationals link

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