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  What mods to cleveland to run 11.99?

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Author Topic:   What mods to cleveland to run 11.99?
70coupe
Gearhead

Posts: 346
From: Toronto,Ontario,Canada
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 09-23-2001 11:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 70coupe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ran my best time yesterday [email protected] I was wondering what I need to do to my cleveland to have it run 11.99 on motor only?I have a 351c 4 bolt main block with closed chamber heads and proper 3/8" screw in studs,one piece valves with 10 degree locks and retainers. Trw forged flat tops with around 11:1 compression. My cam is a Crane solid .554/.577 lift with 238/248 [email protected] Carb is a Holley 750dp mech secondaries on a Torker intake manifold. Good ignition system with MSD 6AL box and 2 step. Bottom end is 10/10 with arp rod bolts. Fresh C6 tranny with 8 3/4" 5000 stall converter and 9" rear with 4:11 gears and slicks. My car weighs 3375 with me in it. What should my next move be to lower my ET? I know its alot of info but if I didnt put it in you'd ask! Oh ya my tires are 26"x10"x15" M/T Et drag.
How does this cam look to you cleveland guru's!


Crane Camshaft Specification Card
Part Number: 52F000020
Grind Number: F-256/3634-2S-6
Engine Ident: 1970-1982 FORD-MERCURY V-8 BOSS 351-351C-
351M-400 CU.IN.


VALVE SETTING: INTAKE .026 EXHAUST .026 ----> HOT

LIFT: INTAKE @CAM 3634 @VALVE 629 ROCKER ARM RATIO
EXHAUST @CAM 3754 @VALVE 649 1.73
ALL LIFTS ARE BASED ON ZERO LASH AND THEORETICAL ROCKER ARM RATIOS

CAM TIMING OPENS CLOSES ADV DURATION
@ .020 INTAKE 41 BTDC 71 ABDC 292
TAPPET LIFT EXHAUST 77 BBDC 43 ATDC 300

SPRING REQUIREMENTS
TRIPLE DUAL OUTER INNER
PART NUMBER 99886

LOADS:
CLOSED 120 LBS @ 1.859 OR 1 55/64
OPEN 390 LBS @ 1.259
RECOMMENDED RPM
RANGE WITH MATCHING COMPONENTS
MINIMUM RPM 4000
MAXIMUM RPM 7000
VALVE FLOAT 8200

CAM TIMING OPENS CLOSES MAX LIFT DURATION
@ .050 INTAKE 26 BTDC 50 ABDC 102 ATDC 256
TAPPET LIFT EXHAUST 62 BBDC 22 ATDC 110 BTDC 264




[This message has been edited by 70coupe (edited 09-23-2001).]

[This message has been edited by 70coupe (edited 09-23-2001).]

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 4357
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 09-23-2001 12:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
More cam will help some. It definatley needs more duration.
A C4 will pick you up around 3 tenths. And all my motors, even the "little" ones, liked having a 950HP on them. My old motor went from running low 7.20's to mid 6.90's in the 1/8 just by changing carbs (had a 750DP). That would be the easiest thing to try. BUT, none of my motors worked well with a 850 DP on them.

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Hans olsson
Gearhead

Posts: 290
From: Sweden
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 09-23-2001 12:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hans olsson   Click Here to Email Hans olsson     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
70coupe,i believe you have the power already. If you change the tranny to C4(less drag) and a lower rear gear (ours is 5.43) you could reach the 11sec zone with ease. Later ... Hans.

------------------

  • 71 Mach1 351c
  • E/SA 11.89-110
  • F/SA 11.92-110

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MrXerox
Gearhead

Posts: 322
From: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 09-23-2001 02:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MrXerox   Click Here to Email MrXerox     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
70coupe, what squirters, jets and pump cams are you running on your 750? I have a similar combo in my street car and am trying to get a good ballpark figure to go with...?

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70coupe
Gearhead

Posts: 346
From: Toronto,Ontario,Canada
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 09-23-2001 09:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 70coupe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm using the white cams on the second position and 35 primary/31 secondary squirters. I launch off a MSD 2 step with a 3800 chip.

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Gary Ferringer
Journeyman

Posts: 59
From: Kennerdell,Pa.
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 09-23-2001 11:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gary Ferringer   Click Here to Email Gary Ferringer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sounds to me that you mainly just need to do a little tuning. That combo should get you there with ease. The C4 will definitely be good for at least 3 tenths as somebody already said.

I personnaly would leave the 750 on it. I ran 6.95 in the 1/8 with one, and consistent 12.20's letting off at the 1/8 mile mark (The strip that I race at is an old 1/4 mile strip, that runs 1/8 mile during eliminations. Although they give 1/4 mile times during time trials, I don't waste my engine running it through, since it has no relevance to me as far as winning or losing goes. The car would most likely run 10.70's or 10.80's if I ran it through.)

Have you tried tuning with open spacers, of various heights. Mine likes as much as I can give it. I have 4 inches under the 850 that I am currently running, the only reason that I don't go higher is because I have no more room under the hood scoop.

A little bit more gear might help as well.

A bit more duration might be a plus, but that cam should still get you there. Also, one thing to think of is that more duration would most likely want more compression ratio to make it work the best. The one that I am running has just slightly more lift, and about 20 degrees more duration at .050.

What jets are you running? How much timing? How soon is it all in? Good gas? What plugs? What 60 foots? Shift RPM? The answers to these questions could give us a clue as to how to make this thing run a little quicker.

------------------
'85 Capri
Cleveland powered
carburetted
6.88 1/8th
@95.75 MPH
1.45 60 ft.

[This message has been edited by Gary Ferringer (edited 09-23-2001).]

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70coupe
Gearhead

Posts: 346
From: Toronto,Ontario,Canada
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 09-23-2001 11:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 70coupe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jets are 81 square with power valve removed and plug installed. Timing is 37 total and it is all in by 3000 maybe sooner I havent checked that as I was told 3000 is fine. Gas is 93 octane with boost (thought about mixing 93 and 112,half and half for about 102 octane).Plugs are NGK R5674-7. Best 60' is 1.80 and the shift light is set for 6100 so more like 6200 shift. I'm also running the torker intake which is working better than the X-cellerator. I have a 1" open spacer and was wondering if a 4 hole might help my 60'? My car is full street trim and weighs 3200+165=3365 with me in it.

[This message has been edited by 70coupe (edited 09-23-2001).]

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MrXerox
Gearhead

Posts: 322
From: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 09-24-2001 01:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MrXerox   Click Here to Email MrXerox     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Is the torker that much of a noticable improvement over the X-Cellerator? I am currently running an X-Cellerator and am still holding out for a strip dominator

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Gary Ferringer
Journeyman

Posts: 59
From: Kennerdell,Pa.
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 09-24-2001 06:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gary Ferringer   Click Here to Email Gary Ferringer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Your 60 foots are slow for your E.T. That is what I would concentrate on. Although I am not a fan of 4 hole spacers, by all means try one, they aren't that expensive.

I would make absolutely certain that your timing is all in by at least 3000, sooner if you can get it there. Mine is all in at just above an idle. You might try 38 or 39 degrees total, but maybe not until you start mixing racing gas with the 93 octane. I am running 38, but I have done quite a bit of work to enhance combustion efficiency.

The jetting most likely sounds ok in your 750. That is something that needs to be adjusted to each individual combination. Although I will say that I am not a fan of plugging the primary power valve, plugging the secondary one if it had one is good though.

The plugs seem ok, I am running NGK R5674-6 normally, although this weekend I tried a set of Autolite AR 135's. I'll most likely get those from now on since they are American made.

Well, I have to get to work. Maybe more suggestions later today.

------------------
'85 Capri
Cleveland powered
carburetted
6.88 1/8th
@95.75 MPH
1.45 60 ft.

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70coupe
Gearhead

Posts: 346
From: Toronto,Ontario,Canada
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 09-24-2001 12:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 70coupe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I depends on what you call noticeable. I gained .15 to .20 with the torker and the throtle response was better. The torker has narrower runners which in my opinion would move the air faster through the ports. If you can get a dominator go for it. I've heard nothing but good things about them. I couldnt find one(for the right price anyways).

Thanks for the help so far and keep the ideas coming. What mods should I look at for lowering my 60'? What cam are you using Gary? Have you had your motor on the dyno?

[This message has been edited by 70coupe (edited 09-24-2001).]

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Gary Ferringer
Journeyman

Posts: 59
From: Kennerdell,Pa.
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 09-24-2001 09:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gary Ferringer   Click Here to Email Gary Ferringer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am using an old,old Lunati solid grind. I bought it back when Joe Lunati still owned the company, I don't recommend them now. Too many quality problems. .591 lift intake, .597 lift exhaust. 260 degrees duration @.050 intake, 268 @.050 exhaust.

One thing that will hurt low end, is using too big of a primary tube in your headers. For your combination, you need 1 3/4" primary tubes with 3" collectors. A lot of people make the mistake of using a large primary on a Cleveland, this just makes it harder to get any velocity out of the too large inefficient exhaust port.

Another thing you might want to try is to get an old Edelbrock F351 intake manifold. Then put about 2 inches of open spacer under it. Most likely you will have every bit as much top end, with more low end. I agree about the Weiand intake, I didn't like it at all with any combination that I have run over the years. I am not thrilled with the Torker either. The both of those intakes are compromise intakes. They don't do anything particularly poorly, but they don't do anything particularly well either.

For now, concentrate on timing. Clevelands are very sensitive to this. Just make sure that you have enough octane to be able to handle the extra timing.

And various combinations of spacers. Don't assume that a lot of open spacer will kill low end, that isn't always the case. Or even try a combination of open spacer, and 4 hole right under the carb.

Also, try collector extensions, if you use open headers. 15 or 18 inches should be good. You would be surprised at how much these small changes will increase performance.

------------------
'85 Capri
Cleveland powered
carburetted
6.88 1/8th
@95.75 MPH
1.45 60 ft.

[This message has been edited by Gary Ferringer (edited 09-24-2001).]

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 1511
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 09-24-2001 09:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm really confused by the 1.8 60ft time.

With a 5000rpm stall converter, along with a 238/248 cam, the thing should flat out "rocket" out of the hole. Clevelands like decent commpression ratios and cams with tight lobe seperations.

I'm still confused about the 60ft times. I would think the car should at -least- be running mid to high 1.6's.

Fix the 60ft times, and you'll take 2-3 tenths off your et... every 0.1 off the 60ft gives you roughly 0.15 off the et.

Good Luck!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 4357
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 09-24-2001 10:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My street car with the C6 and the 4v motor, when I was footbraking it, even with a 5000 convertor, wouldnt get out of its own way leaving the line either. Not until I put the t-brake in it, did it get decent 60 ft times. I was running a 4.71 gear, and a solid cam with 235, 245 duration, and I was lucky to get low 1.70's with it.

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Hans olsson
Gearhead

Posts: 290
From: Sweden
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 09-25-2001 12:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hans olsson   Click Here to Email Hans olsson     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We use a comp cam 260/255 dur @ 0.050 .430/0.450 lift. Slip rpm is 5200rpm and we are getting 1.595 60ft times. Stock ratios in the C4 and 5.43 gears. Later..Hans

------------------

  • 71 Mach1 351c
  • E/SA 11.89-110
  • F/SA 11.92-110

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Gary Ferringer
Journeyman

Posts: 59
From: Kennerdell,Pa.
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 09-25-2001 06:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gary Ferringer   Click Here to Email Gary Ferringer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I concur Hans. When I was running the Lunati Bracketmaster II, which is a somewhat similar cam to what he is running, I was getting low 1.60 60 foots footbraking with a C6. This was with a 5000 convertor, which was too loose for that engine in my opinion. I put that same convertor (with the help of a spline adapter} in a C4 and it definitely helped, but he should still be able to get at the very least high 1.60's with what he has.

The thing that absolutely wiped out my low end with that combo was going with a 1 7/8" primary, 3 1/2" collector header. I lost everywhere, including top end. I put my 1 3/4" headers back on until I built an engine that could use those headers.

I am still using that same convertor today, only I got it converted over to a C4 one so that I wouldn't have to mess with the spline adapter. The engine is making the power to use it now, and it is most likely closer to 5800 with my current combination. The mid 1.40 60 foots are without the aid of a trans brake, and I leave the line at 4200, holding the brakes about as hard as I can.

------------------
'85 Capri
Cleveland powered
carburetted
6.88 1/8th
@95.75 MPH
1.45 60 ft.

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Mpcoluv
Gearhead

Posts: 928
From: Charlotte NC usa
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 09-25-2001 07:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mpcoluv   Click Here to Email Mpcoluv     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Ferringer:
I am using an old,old Lunati solid grind. I bought it back when Joe Lunati still owned the company, I don't recommend them now. Too many quality problems. .591 lift intake, .597 lift exhaust. 260 degrees duration @.050 intake, 268 @.050 exhaust.

One thing that will hurt low end, is using too big of a primary tube in your headers. For your combination, you need 1 3/4" primary tubes with 3" collectors. A lot of people make the mistake of using a large primary on a Cleveland, this just makes it harder to get any velocity out of the too large inefficient exhaust port.

Another thing you might want to try is to get an old Edelbrock F351 intake manifold. Then put about 2 inches of open spacer under it. Most likely you will have every bit as much top end, with more low end. I agree about the Weiand intake, I didn't like it at all with any combination that I have run over the years. I am not thrilled with the Torker either. The both of those intakes are compromise intakes. They don't do anything particularly poorly, but they don't do anything particularly well either.

For now, concentrate on timing. Clevelands are very sensitive to this. Just make sure that you have enough octane to be able to handle the extra timing.

And various combinations of spacers. Don't assume that a lot of open spacer will kill low end, that isn't always the case. Or even try a combination of open spacer, and 4 hole right under the carb.

Also, try collector extensions, if you use open headers. 15 or 18 inches should be good. You would be surprised at how much these small changes will increase performance.


Where can you get a set of 1 3/4" headers that will clear the factory clutch linkage?
The hooker super comps and the Tubular autimotive headers are 1 7/8" I believe.
BTW the Edelbrock performer is the same intake as far as I can tell as the F351-4V.


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70coupe
Gearhead

Posts: 346
From: Toronto,Ontario,Canada
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 09-25-2001 07:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 70coupe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My headers have primaries of 1 7/8" which I guess is not helping me any. I run full 2 1/2" exhaust with mufflers and tail pipes. I disconnected the exhaust one time and it didnt seem to make much difference,maybe .05 tops. I think I will remove the complete exhaust system for the weight savings since the car with me weighs 3375lbs and put a collector extension on of 20" or so and find out where it turns blue,then cut it there. Do you guys think a shift kit and manual valve body would be worth the expense? The tranny is fresh and had extra clutches installed.

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Hans olsson
Gearhead

Posts: 290
From: Sweden
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 09-25-2001 03:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hans olsson   Click Here to Email Hans olsson     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We run the Hooker super comp headers#6211 ,i think they are 2 inch primary and 3.5 inch collector. We have 3200 rpm stage( i don`t think it will go much higher) and it goes to 5200rpm as soon as the car moves.It is a Hughes super pro 3.It also have the spline adapter.The best 1/8 mile is 7.52/[email protected] 70coupe get a C4 and put the money in it instead of the C6.You will be happier in the long run .

------------------

  • 71 Mach1 351c
  • E/SA 11.89-110
  • F/SA 11.92-110

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Mpcoluv
Gearhead

Posts: 928
From: Charlotte NC usa
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 09-25-2001 03:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mpcoluv   Click Here to Email Mpcoluv     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ford Powertrain makes 1 3/4" primary, 3" collector headers for the 351c 4V. $399 crome, 599 ceramic coated. Not very cheap....

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