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Author
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Topic: Lost some horsepower, help.....
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 3653
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 07-21-2001 08:12 PM
   
Guys,Last time out the '66 was running off about 3 mph and .3 seconds. The only changes I made were we ran a K&N 14" filter w/K&N's filter top instead of no filter, and I installed a new HD drive shaft. It usually runs 109 mph, we were running 105-106 last time out. The engine has about 130-150 passes on it and 15K street miles. 351w, trw's l.w. race pistons, C&A gapless rings, Edel Perf RPM heads "out of the box". So today I pulled the plugs (Autolite 3924) and #1,2,3,4 were oil fowled but still firing. #5 was slightly fowled, #6&7 were really fowled and don't look like they were firing at all, and finally #8 looked good! So I ran a compression check and all 8 cylinders had 175#s compression. (10-1 compression w/ Comp's 282S cam) Then I looked for my leak down tester, but someone borrowed it.  Anyway, next I eliminated the pcv valve and added another K&N breather to that valvecover. There was some oil in the pcv hose. Edelbrock's tall alum. covers BTW. It's been using about a quart a week (10 passes and 100miles) of Mobil-one oil lately. I'm not sure if it's the pcv or not? The pcv was connected to the base of the 750 holley. I'll try it w/o a pcv and two breathers next week. Any ideas? Is it time to freshen the motor up? It doesn't smoke, not that you can see anyway?!?  Thanks for your help and suggestions!  SteveW
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Doc
Gearhead Posts: 466
From: Redwood City, Ca. USA
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 07-21-2001 09:17 PM
I've seen a filter alone cause that much loss, and if it is the filter it'll also explain the plugs.
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 3653
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 07-21-2001 09:19 PM
Thanks Doc,I was thinking of leaning it out for the filter, but the oil really screws up the plug readings.  SteveW
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Doc
Gearhead Posts: 466
From: Redwood City, Ca. USA
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 07-21-2001 09:31 PM
If it were my car (inside joke for Butch) I'd leave off the filter, in theory the filter would create more suck in the intake and draw more oil from the PCV.
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 3653
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 07-21-2001 09:44 PM
Doc,We only ran the filter 'cause of all the construction and dust at Searspoint lately. I thought K&N were supposed to be "filterchargers" Not that I ever beleived them. LOL SteveW
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I65Stang
Moderator Posts: 5087
From: Antelope, CA
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 07-21-2001 09:48 PM
I have a great solution Steve! Give it to me and build a brand new motor  . Works for me, does it work for you?  ------------------
Tim M&M Member #35
1965 Mustang coupe, 200 I6, Holley 2300, Clifford header, true duals w/ 26" Smithys
1988 Mustang GT AOD vert, 15.810 @ 88.871 mph 100% stock w/ no traction, 4.10s being installed
1976 Silverline Comoro 18' trihull ski boat, 188 hp 302 I/O, another toy
http://all.at/mustang
https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/I65Stang.html
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Doc
Gearhead Posts: 466
From: Redwood City, Ca. USA
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 07-21-2001 11:03 PM
Do you know Bob Carter that runs out at Sears with a gold or brown Buick GS? He runs low 11s to high 10s except when we put a K&N filter with the high flow top on it, then it runs consistant mid 11s. I hear ya about dust. I hate the prospect of losing ring seal to dirt, it causes smart *** guys to call your car a stone LOL .
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perk
Gearhead Posts: 325
From: Staley,nc
Registered: Sep 2000
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posted 07-21-2001 11:33 PM
Hey Steve,I believe your problem was or is the filter.Do the vavle covers have baffles
for the pvc ??
So I agree with Doc,Yea that's it,I agree with Doc!!! perk
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 3653
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 07-21-2001 11:35 PM
Doc,I hope you're right! If it's just the K&N and the pcv valve, I'll be a very happy crew chief!! We'll still run the K&N next Weds. but no pcv valve. Then there's only one more Sears event the next w/e before they bulldose the track and we'll move on to Sacramento Raceway for some "real" time runs, probably get to launch at 5000 rpm at Sac! SteveW p.s. Tim, build your own... [This message has been edited by steve'66 (edited 07-21-2001).]
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I65Stang
Moderator Posts: 5087
From: Antelope, CA
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 07-21-2001 11:47 PM
Lol, I am sure Melissa wants a more powerful engine so I dont think she would have a problem with it . Guess I'll just have to get a Vortech instead .I'm gonna get the other rear end in the '88 tomorrow (dunno which gears yet, stupid computer) so I'll try and join you all out at Sears for some racing this Wednesday . ------------------
Tim M&M Member #35
1965 Mustang coupe, 200 I6, Holley 2300, Clifford header, true duals w/ 26" Smithys
1988 Mustang GT AOD vert, 15.810 @ 88.871 mph 100% stock w/ no traction, 4.10s being installed
1976 Silverline Comoro 18' trihull ski boat, 188 hp 302 I/O, another toy
http://all.at/mustang
https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/I65Stang.html
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chips67
Gearhead Posts: 537
From: louisville, ky, usa
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 07-22-2001 12:03 AM
i was talking to a pro about possible damage to my engine from the coolant in the combustion chambers when im on it. he said thats not going to hurt anything, just as long as theres no oil getting in there. something about it severly lowering the octane level of the fuel and causing serious damage. i dont know if hes right....see an aweful lot of smoke bombs with the blue smoke from worn rings that dont have catastrophic failures.....might wanna check into it. my car doesnt seem to care whether the k&n is on or not. my car dont care about nothing much this year anyway......remember, blown head gasket + bad distributor = motor that responds to no amount of tuning.------------------
67 coupe, 650dp and rpm intake on 5.0 with afr 165 heads, 4 speed, 4.11's.....best so far is [email protected] in 1/8 mile with 1.91 60ft. time.
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jkilroy
Gearhead Posts: 1289
From: Austin, TX
Registered: Dec 99
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posted 07-22-2001 01:26 AM
A fresh filter shouldn't cause that much restriction. I have 14" K&N on my 390 and there is no difference in vacuum with the filter on or off. ------------------
Jay Kilroy
68' Fastback GT 390
"No such thing as a cam thats too big"
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Doc
Gearhead Posts: 466
From: Redwood City, Ca. USA
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 07-22-2001 04:08 AM
I could be wrong. That has happened before and my wife keeps me aware of it . The oil reducing the fuel firing point is true and can cause some very ugly stuff to happen. If the 60 footers were good I'd drop a couple of numbers out of the secondaries and run it with the filter. Some cars/engines aren't affected by little things that others are, one time Butch put a set of turnouts on his collectors and it fell off like 2 or 3 10ths, many people are very surprised at that too. Maybe the filter did "charge" it and caused a lean condition so the MPH fell off .
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JAAZZY
Gearhead Posts: 666
From: Bay Area, CA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 07-22-2001 11:55 AM
Steve,I run a K&N filter as well. I've never compared times with it off because I'm afraid to run it without a filter but the few times I have had the air cleaner off I notice a significant improvement in how it runs. Enough that I feel it... not so much that I can notice the power difference but it feels like it revs up smoother and faster. 3mph does seem like a lot but I wouldn't be surprised.
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 3653
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 07-22-2001 05:04 PM
Perk,The valve covers have baffles. It could be the air filter, cause we have to use a drop base under the K&N for hood clearance. We'll find out in a few days. SteveW
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 1994
From: huh?? what? who? ME!?!?!?!
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 07-22-2001 09:17 PM
That's it. The drop base. When I was running a K&N, I started off with a drop base. I finally got a flat base, and with the same filter it picked up 2 mph. The only thing we could figure was that the drop base was creating turbulance or something.
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chips67
Gearhead Posts: 537
From: louisville, ky, usa
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 07-22-2001 10:24 PM
i figured a drop base would be better. mine runs no different with/without the drop base and k&n...not even when the gasket wasnt blown. your drop base wasnt binding your linkage or not allowing full throttle was it? stupid question but who knows? id have a 2 inch spacer and stub stack if i could but it would mean a scoop or cowl induction hood......i like the rally hood too much. i think thats what its called...its the one with the 2 reverse vents and tunrsignal indicator lights in it. of course i took the lights out! you know how much they weigh! they are in the box with my cigarette lighter which comes out when i race. i dont see why i NEED five lug nuts. ------------------
67 coupe, 650dp and rpm intake on 5.0 with afr 165 heads, 4 speed, 4.11's.....best so far is [email protected] in 1/8 mile with 1.91 60ft. time.
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Doc
Gearhead Posts: 466
From: Redwood City, Ca. USA
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 07-23-2001 01:00 AM
Bob's GS was with a drop base, might be that simple.
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 3653
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 07-23-2001 02:15 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Doc:
Do you know Bob Carter that runs out at Sears with a gold or brown Buick GS? He runs low 11s to high 10s except when we put a K&N filter with the high flow top on it, then it runs consistant mid 11s. {Not personally, but I beleive you.} I hear ya about dust. I hate the prospect of losing ring seal to dirt, it causes smart *** guys to call your car a stone LOL .
You have a good memory. That was funny! SteveW
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Just Jim
Gearhead Posts: 373
From: So Cal
Registered: Feb 2000
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posted 07-23-2001 06:13 PM
Steve,
You should try running at LACR sometime.There can be a .3sec/3MPH difference from one day to the next due to the bad desert air and 3000ft elevation.My Morris may be running 12.30's one week and 12.60's the next and 12.40's the week after.It's almost as inconsistent as me posting to M&M anymore.LOL.Better use an air cleaner of some type at LACR also.Lots of blowing sand due to the track being surrounded by a quarry/gavel pit. That good air up your way has ya spoiled. ------------------
"Just Falcon Around"
1962 Falcon 351W
1958 Morris Minor 289
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 3653
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 07-23-2001 06:19 PM
HI JIM!!I wondered what happened to you. Thanks for the post. I'll bet the power is back now with fresh plugs and no filter. We'll see.... You remember when Larry (doc) called the '66 a stone??? LOL
SteveW
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Just Jim
Gearhead Posts: 373
From: So Cal
Registered: Feb 2000
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posted 07-23-2001 07:59 PM
"Like a rolling stone....Leave no stone unturned.....People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.....or the older I get the faster I was"? Anyway,hope the new filter and plugs do the trick.Too bad I wasn't closer or I'd join you guys in the fun.------------------
"Just Falcon Around"
1962 Falcon 351W
1958 Morris Minor 289
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Doc
Gearhead Posts: 466
From: Redwood City, Ca. USA
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 07-23-2001 10:53 PM
Come on up Jim! You could get home in time for work Thursday, you might smell a little tired after the drive though .
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Just Jim
Gearhead Posts: 373
From: So Cal
Registered: Feb 2000
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posted 07-24-2001 06:23 PM
OK, I'll leave now (Tuesday afternoon) so I get there early.Might not make it back for work Thursday though.The latest Summit mini catalog has some new product called Manhattan Oil Fuel Fragrance which is supposed to make your car exhaust less nauseous.It comes in about 20 different flavors like:Supersonic Cinnamon,Rocket Cotton Candy,Atomic Apple, Etc. I think Melissa's car could use some Burn Out Blueberry to gain back those lost 3MPH.What will they think of next? ------------------
"Just Falcon Around"
1962 Falcon 351W
1958 Morris Minor 289
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I65Stang
Moderator Posts: 5087
From: Antelope, CA
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 07-24-2001 06:27 PM
I wanted to get some of that while we were in Reno Jim but they went to Scummit before I was able to get up there  .------------------
Tim M&M Member #35
1965 Mustang coupe, 200 I6, Holley 2300, Clifford header, true duals w/ 26" Smithys
1988 Mustang GT AOD vert, 15.810 @ 88.871 mph 100% stock w/ no traction, 4.10s being installed
1976 Silverline Comoro 18' trihull ski boat, 188 hp 302 I/O, another toy
http://all.at/mustang
https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/I65Stang.html
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 1994
From: huh?? what? who? ME!?!?!?!
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 07-24-2001 07:12 PM
I use that stuff in my fuel to make the alcohol fumes more tolerable. Without it, the fumes will run you out of the garage in a third of the time it takes with it.
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Just Jim
Gearhead Posts: 373
From: So Cal
Registered: Feb 2000
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posted 07-24-2001 09:50 PM
Better make sure the garage door is open or you will be smelling roses.------------------
"Just Falcon Around"
1962 Falcon 351W
1958 Morris Minor 289
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Doc
Gearhead Posts: 466
From: Redwood City, Ca. USA
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 07-24-2001 11:46 PM
Not with akahaul!
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 3653
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 07-24-2001 11:51 PM
Doc,Kid doesn't mess around with parts cleaners as fuel like us regular "folk" do. LOL SteveW
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Doc
Gearhead Posts: 466
From: Redwood City, Ca. USA
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 07-25-2001 02:55 AM
I alway liked ethanol cause if you break the car you can party on the fuel , with methanol you can't do that.
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 3653
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 07-25-2001 11:25 PM
Got the missing h.p. back!New plugs and no K&N "filtercharger" and it's running great again! In fact too good, She broke out, even with lifting at the 1000' mark it went a 12.71 @ 95mph on a 12.80 dial. Oh well, we still had fun and met another M&Mer (Jazzy) SteveW
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Doc
Gearhead Posts: 466
From: Redwood City, Ca. USA
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 07-25-2001 11:52 PM
Yaaaa! Big cheer . I take some solace in running too quick .[This message has been edited by Doc (edited 07-26-2001).]
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Mike_R
Journeyman Posts: 89
From: Indianapolis, IN 46237
Registered: Feb 2001
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posted 07-26-2001 08:38 AM
Sounds great Steve. Did you remove the air cleaner completely? Did you determine it was the drop down air cleaner base or just the use of an air cleaner period? I'm wanting to know for future reference. Thanks
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 3653
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 07-26-2001 10:09 AM
Mike,Yes, it won't fit under the hood with a standard base. SteveW
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 3653
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 07-30-2001 12:26 AM
This w/e it ran 110.4 mph w/o the aircleaner and full exhaust. That's 5-6mph better than it ran with the K&N filter and top. Everyone was talking about our poor altitude too.
SteveW
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