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Author Topic:   460s, Roller Cams & Oiling Mods ?
Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 1450
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 07-12-2001 06:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey you 460 Racers:

#1) Has anyone ever noticed roller cams being more prone to breakage than running a solid cam?

#2) Other than ensuring the cam bearings are installed with the oil hole lined up with the opening in the block, what else could/should be done?

#3) Does anyone check the installed bearing ID and the cam journal OD - if so, what is the reccommended 'safe' clearance?

#4) Are there any recommended oiling system mods that should be checked or done to ensure a long and happy 7000+rpm life?

Thanks for your helpful experience BBF Racers! Ryan

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F551
Gearhead

Posts: 172
From: Manitoba, Canada
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 07-12-2001 07:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for F551   Click Here to Email F551     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Ryan

1)No experience with roller cams yet (not enough benefit to the cost for what we're doing). Broke one cam when it got whacked by a chunk of rod - and broke the dowel on a new cam on the breakin.

2)We pretty much just do a visual on the bearings, if the cam turns nice - all is ok.
Have heard of a shop that would "hone" the cam bearings. Was an arbor with scotchbrite mounted on it. Some people use scotchbrite while others don't mess with the finish the manufacturer left (rods/mains).

3)No idea - maybe in bearing catalogue.

4) Front sump pan - gotta have a baffle. To increase volume to the crank we restrict the cam bearings supply to 1/8" diameter - no problems so far. Also run an external oil line from the back to the front same reason.

Something we've thought about but not done is a retainer for the lifters - loose a lifter - oil pressure is gone. But we have a low oil pressure switch which will kill the fuel pump.

Engine is turning 6900 - 7100 across the line depending on the day.

You guys agree with this stuff?
Waht else can we do?

------------------
Fred
68 Mustang 500CID/Powerglide - "No Tubs"
86 Mustang GT Cobra

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Mike_R
Gearhead

Posts: 150
From: Indianapolis, IN 46237
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 07-13-2001 09:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mike_R   Click Here to Email Mike_R     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey Ryan,

My car is a street car and I'm not sure if you are talking about a full time drag car, but here's been my experience. Me and my brother have both use the street roller cams quite a bit. My current cam is a custom grind Comp Cam based on their Extreme Energy street roller lobes. It has 260/272 duration @.050 and .666"/.688" lift. My previous cam had been the 300R street roller (255 @.050 and .651" lift). I ran that cam on the street for 13 years and at the track pretty regularly. My shift point has been around 6500-6800 RPM.

About the only thing I did was make sure to use a baffled oil pan and cj oil pump. That's it. Never had an oiling problem. Checked the bearings a couple years back and they looked like new.

I know of several mods you can do to the oiling system which I may do next time around, but I've done okay with it like it is. My brother has about the same deal. Maybe we've just been lucky.

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 1450
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 07-13-2001 11:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey Guys,
Thanks for all the good ideas...

Do you guys (or anyone else) have any opinion on the 3 ideas below:

A) "Screening the oil drainback holes in the lifter valley" (I'm reluctant to do that for fear that they'd come loose or gum/plug up some how and retain too much oil on the top side).

B) "Install bronze bushings in the RH side lifter bores, for the same reason that they do in Clevelands" - but I'm not aware as to why some do that in Cleve's....?

C) "Restrict the cam brgs to 1/8" and run an external oil line from back to front to allow more oil to get to the crank" -- which sounds like something I'd consider if I was planning on a blower, nitrous or 7500+ rpms... which I'm not.

Mike_R, you asked what kind of a pkg I'm planning. The cam I'm looking at installing is the CompCam grind# FF 296 BR-8 mech roller cam (260/268 duration @ 050, valve lift .726"/.726", with a LS of 108 degrees. It would live in a 500", strip-only, 1050 cfm Dominator'd, stick-shift'd, 10" slick'd '69FB. -- But after what's happened to 'Kid Vishus' Cleve' and his concern of it being roller-cam related, I'm alittle skeptical to go with my choice now....

Anybody else have any other thoughts, ideas, or suggestions on this subject?

Thanks again,,, Ryan

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Mike_R
Gearhead

Posts: 150
From: Indianapolis, IN 46237
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 07-13-2001 01:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mike_R   Click Here to Email Mike_R     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
About the only thing I can add is that these Comp Cams rollers I've been using have a larger than stock cam bolt hole. At first I was kind of ticked off because I had to enlarge the hole in the eccentric, but then I realized it was for durabilty. I'm not sure if this is the case for all 460 roller cams or if Comp does it because they know it needs it.

Another issue is that possibly relates to the cam pin problems is valve spring pressure. The Extreme Energy line of roller lobes only use .015-.018" lash. This allows you to run a MUCH lighter valvespring and controls alot of the harshness of a roller cam. You can use springs with a seat pressure of about 160-200 and an open pressure of about 450-500. That's not a heck of alot more than a flat tappet solid lifter. Believe me I've put it the test. Like I said 13 years on the street and strip, 6800 RPM, never misses a beat.

You can get a custom grind from Comp Cams for the same price as their standard grinds. The grind I mentioned above is a good durable grind that can live with lighter valvesprings and still pull alot of power. I realize it's about .050" shy in the lift department of what you're looking at, but you're only talking about 5 horsepower in exchange for more durability.

I'm not suggesting you have to go roller at all. I know alot of guys here run flat tappets and have real good luck.

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jkilroy
Gearhead

Posts: 1703
From: Vicksburg, MS
Registered: Dec 99

posted 07-14-2001 10:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jkilroy   Click Here to Email jkilroy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The only oiling mods I can think of for 460's are the standard tricks

1. Port out the oil filter pad, those holes are small. You don't really have to open them up but work on the tranistions.

2. In the same vein open up the oil passage where the oil pump bolts on. The blocks vary but the two I have now are both a touch under 1/2 while the pump is almost 5/8.

3. The high volume pumps can really empty out a pan so do everything you can to improve drain back. I like screens over drain back holes. I don't like most of the kits because the screen is a little tight I like a fairly corse 3/64 or 1/8 inch stainless screen and put it in with a quality slow cure expoy.

4. If you use a pump with a bolt on pickup like a Melling M-84BHV, drill those bolts and use lock wire on those bolts. I have heard that it is possible for pickups to fall off, but thats never happend to me, no way, just heard about it happening to some 'other guy'.

Personally I have never seen the external oil lines on a 460. I have seen a ton of those setups on 351C's though. I have also not heard of people restricting flow to the lifters but would like to know how. If anyone has the goods on that mod shell it out.

Mike_R, what size motor are you running that cam in? If you wouldn't mind sharing some more details about your combo that would be great.

------------------
Jay Kilroy
68' Fastback GT 390
"No such thing as a cam thats too big"

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steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 6352
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 07-14-2001 09:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This thread is interesting even though I'm not a BBF racer.

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S/Q 2204
Journeyman

Posts: 93
From: Ozark, AL(again after a year of being deployed)
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 07-15-2001 10:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for S/Q 2204   Click Here to Email S/Q 2204     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
jkilroy,
Oil restictor kit P/N ES-1174 (may be correct #), Engine Systems. Will need competent machine shop to install.
Mark J.

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Mike_R
Gearhead

Posts: 150
From: Indianapolis, IN 46237
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 07-16-2001 09:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mike_R   Click Here to Email Mike_R     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jay, The engine is a 460 cubic incher with stock SCJ rods, TRW L2443 pistons, ported iron SCJ heads (D0OE-R), and Ford Power Parts dual plane intake. I guess if you take away the cam it's a fairly mild build-up except for all the head work I've done on it. This engine has some miles on it. The next one I build will have steel rods and possibly a stroker crank.

I haven't raced it yet since I've done alot of port work to the heads, added the new cam and bigger headers.

This is in my 70 Torino Cobra 4-speed that weighs 4050 lbs. Last year I raced it once with street tires and exhaust and ran 11.71 @118. It had run 11.56 @123 with open headers and slicks a few years back. I rarely race it though, it's mostly street driven and I try to keep it very stock in appearance.

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 1450
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 07-16-2001 09:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Fred,
Are you running a flat-tappet or roller cam 6800-7100 rpms?

Regarding your mention of installing a 'lifter retainer'... this is what I've been told: "If you're running hydraulic lifters, you should install a 'lifter keeper' on the right side lifter valley. A 1" piece of flat stock mounted above the lifters with holes for the pushrods to pass thru, & fastened down via a thru bolt from the timing cover/waterpump (frt) and somewhere at the rear...some blocks have a hole - some need a hole drilled & tapped to allow a bolt fastener at the rear. With the retainer, if a pushrod gets bent, the lifter(s) can't come out of the bore and cause excessive oil pressure loss - since the oil goes to the right-side lifters before going to the crank & camshaft...".

Mike_R,
Do you think you're topped out with your solid flat-tappet cam @ 6500-6800 rpms or would it still pull at 7000? --

The reason I'm asking is because I bit the bullet and sprung for the cast-steel 4.14" Eagle crank and Eagle H-beam rods, so I'm inclined to want to use the 7000+ rpm 'capacity' available with this short-block pkg. Hmmmm, I guess I should also be looking at whether my mildly-ported Edelbrock heads will flow that high...

Thanks for everyone's continued imput,
Ryan

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Mike_R
Gearhead

Posts: 150
From: Indianapolis, IN 46237
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 07-16-2001 10:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mike_R   Click Here to Email Mike_R     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ryan, Mine is actually a solid roller cam. I'm sure it will pull to 7000 RPM but I have stock rods so 6800 is a self imposed limit. Your set-up sounds like it's quite a bit different than mine. I would guesstimate if you want to pull strong up to 7000 RPM with 512 cubic inches you could go with alot bigger cam than mine or the 260/268 you mentioned previously. I remember the article on Kasse's 519 that had massive flowing cj aluminum heads and Victor intake, 1150 carb etc. He ran a solid roller that was like 275/285 with .782" lift. It peaked around 6800-7000. What I'm saying is it seems like it takes a massive cam to make a 500+ cubic inch 385 series engine peak at 7000 RPM. Maybe you don't actually want it to peak that high though I guess. Maybe you're wanting it to peak at say 6500 RPM, but then shift it at 7000 RPM.

When (if) I build a stroker I will probably use my current cam and I expect it to peak at about 6300 and then I will shift at about 6500-6600. I actually bought this cam with that in mind.

Sorry, long answer to a short question.

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 1450
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 07-16-2001 01:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mike_R,
Don't worry about apologizing, 'about being long'...because I appreciate the clarity in your responses. Besides, I get that way myself!!!!

Regarding my set-up - I guess I should of been clearer in that the Eagle H-beams are 6.80". So with the 4.14" crank, I figure it to be only 501". But you're correct, in that I'd like it to peak at 6500 and shift at 6900 - 7100.

I'm familar with the Haase article. Although I'm also planning on using a Victor intake, a Dominator and without any power adders - I'm not anticipating to get as much flow out of my Edelbrock heads as Haase did out of his hogged-out alumium CJ heads to feed his 519". However, my thought was that the Edel heads would flow enough to at least properly feed my 501" at those target rpms. likewise, I wasn't figuring on needing as much cam as Haase since he built a bigger pkg.

Like Haase's car, I will also be running a smaller 10" tire (at least for a while), so I can't have too much coming on right off the line. I'm sure if I sprung to have the Edel's flow checked then it would be easier to decide the cam selection, peak rpm and resulant shift point. But,,

Do ya think maybe I could save that expense of having the heads flow'd and feel safe to expect the Edel's to flow enough to feed YOUR cam spec in my 501", and, as you say, expect a 6300 peak and shift at about 6500-6600... and just 'be happy and feel safe' in that the bottom-end SHOULD have a long and happy life at less-than-capable peak rpms?

Thanks again for your insight, Mike.
Ryan

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Mike_R
Gearhead

Posts: 150
From: Indianapolis, IN 46237
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 07-16-2001 01:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mike_R   Click Here to Email Mike_R     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ryan, I only got my heads flow tested because I had no idea whatsover what to expect them to flow. Alot of it was curiousity and it helped me pick out the cam specs. I would think that the Edlebrocks are going to have a pretty nice intake to exhaust ratio and you already know going into it that they will flow well, so getting them flow tested would probably just satisfy your curiousity. I had a local shop flowtest mine and it was only $50 though.

Now that I see you have Edlebrock heads it makes sense that you may not want as much spread between intake and exhaust as I have. My intake and exhaust flows were severely mismatched (375/211). That's why I had a custom ground with a 12 degree spread (260/272).

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 1450
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 07-16-2001 03:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mike,
For some reason I assumed that it would cost more like $250 to flow check a set of heads. Even $100 isn't a bad deal to find out 'what-is-what'....Hmmmmmmmmmm.....I'll have to shop for a place that might do some flow-check work around here........
Thanks, Ryan

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Mike_R
Gearhead

Posts: 150
From: Indianapolis, IN 46237
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 07-16-2001 04:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mike_R   Click Here to Email Mike_R     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What they did was just basically test one intake port and one exhaust port through the entire lift range for that price. I felt like that was enough for me to know what I had. The prices I found for this service varied from about $50-100 and then some places charge by the hour. To me it was well worth the price.

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F551
Gearhead

Posts: 172
From: Manitoba, Canada
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 07-18-2001 08:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for F551   Click Here to Email F551     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ryan - we run a Mechanical flat tappet cam.

Always thought added expense of roller wasn't worth it - we want to run mid 10 with a 3200lb car(and I'm about 230) at 750 feet. And on a average day we are doing it.

Present cam is Crane 351511
Lift - .603" intake / .624" exhaust
Adv dur - 302 intake / 312 exhaust
Dur @ .050" - 266 intake / 276 exhaust

Victor intake with an old 800 Holley.

Heads are CI C8 - intake flow 288 @ .600 lift
- exhaust flow 184 @ .600"
(28" H2O) - exhaust floor filled, we use MPG
port plates.

6.8" Eagle H beam rods, cast crank 500 cid

Was dynoed with old cam - 650 ft/lb @4250
- 645 hp @ 6250

Old cam was Comp 34-652-5, not enough top end.

Shift at 6000, best ET 10.44 @ 129 mph.
Best 60 is 1.44 sec.

Lifter Retainer - Some years back we were using BBC replacement rockers. Broke one and lost oil pressure - low oil switch saved motor. Bought SpeedPro roller rockers no problem since. Still think about making something as that gallery thru the lifters is pretty major.

------------------
Fred
68 Mustang 500CID/Powerglide - "No Tubs"
86 Mustang GT Cobra

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 1450
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 07-19-2001 11:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Morning Fred,
Thanks for the lowdown on your setup. You mentioned switching to SpeedPro roller rockers,,,what brand did you run before them ? Do you still think that your previous rockers were a problem source for you?

I've considered installing an oil pressure cutoff switch myself, but I was talked out of by a fella who convinced me that "it is just one more thing to have to question & check if your engine doesn't fire". However, I'm thinking again about installing one because I don't have a bad history of having any electrical problems....knock on wood... and I think I'd rather have to deal with the possibility of a faulty safety device rather than screw up a good engine without it.

I think the lifter retainer is a simple and fool-proof added safety device that may also save the motor from big problems whether a guy runs an electrical cutout or not...

Regarding the mech roller cam, I'm still undecided whether they warrant the extra $$$ or not...that's why all my questions. If you're successfully spinning 6900-7100 without a roller cam and we all can agree that the flat-tappet setup is easier on the valvetrain, your example is a tough one to dispute...

Thanks again,,,, Ryan

------------------
The '3-Pedal Attitude' Kid
in a '69 FB w/ 306 now, but
the 460+ is coming... :D

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F551
Gearhead

Posts: 172
From: Manitoba, Canada
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 07-19-2001 07:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for F551   Click Here to Email F551     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Lifter that failed was a TRW stock style BBC part. When we installed the first solid cam we had the pedastels machined and used Motorsport studs with the Chev rockers as they were cheap. After the rocker failed we got the SpeedPro roller rockers. A sponsor was a distributor and we got a good deal - one of the local shops we dealt with said they would be S#&%!, when the guy saw them his remarks "they look like Crane".Ran that set 3 or 4 years then sold them with an old motor. Bought another set - they are fine.

Don't think the TRW were that bad - just lots of passes and rpm - was time for roller.

The oil pressure cutout hasn't been a problem, tee off the sender at the top/back of the block. Troubleshooting - put a jumper across the contacts.

Why only a 10" tire? That 500 makes lots of torque and is going to smack those tires espicially with a 4 speed. We are using 12 X 29 Hoosier right now. 1 set per year.

Roller cam is a lot of extra money -make power you may not be able to get to the ground as well as wear and tear.

Sounds like our motors are similair - except you have Al heads - save 100 pounds there!
Think you'll be happy when it's running.

------------------
Fred
68 Mustang 500CID/Powerglide - "No Tubs"
86 Mustang GT Cobra

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 1450
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 07-23-2001 06:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Fred,
My reason for only a 10" tire is my '69 stock wheel wells - yet you're running a 12" tire under your '68 without tubs? Hmmmmm, how'd you do that?

Well maybe I should back down from being set on choosing a roller cam just yet and settle for a fine mech flat-tappet stick - like your Crane stick. - Not to mention your point of it being easier on wear n' tear.

Maybe if/when I can tubb it and fit a larger tire under it then I could consider stepping up to making more power with the roller cam and getting it all to the ground...:/

Thanks again for your thoughts & comments, Ryan

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F551
Gearhead

Posts: 172
From: Manitoba, Canada
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 07-25-2001 08:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for F551   Click Here to Email F551     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ryan: we are using a rearend out of a 69 Cougar - I think it is normal width 54" (the early one was 52"?). Springs were the ones that came on the car, added a leaf and re-arced 2" over stock. Use 10" wide Welds (can't remember the off set). Some hammer/dolly work in the wheel house, and removed the rubber bumper - had to cut the front lower section of the quarter forward to the body. Body man really cleaned it up nice when we painted the car this spring. I originaly made clearance with a 7" grinder. When you look down the side of the quarter you see about an 1/8" of tread. Would be nice to have every thing inside but it's good to out 60' the 4 link/ladder bar crowd with leaf springs!

------------------
Fred
68 Mustang 500CID/Powerglide - "No Tubs"
86 Mustang GT Cobra

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 1450
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 07-26-2001 08:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Fred,
Sounds like a good combo...and if a fella could locate an early Cougar rear easily/cheaply,, it would be an inexpensive setup and look good too!

I've been looking at cutting back the front lower quarters on my '69 too as it is the closest spot in the wheel well to the slick. The rubber bumper you removed was attached at the top of the 'frame rail', center of the wheel well arch, right? Why did you remove it? If you added arch to your leafs, it isn't as though you lowered the car - do you have that much body movement at launch time to interfere with the bumper?

Ryan

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alvin
Journeyman

Posts: 1
From: Baton Rouge, LA, USA
Registered: Aug 2001

posted 08-16-2001 09:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for alvin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ryan,
I didn't notice where you mentioned whether your Edelbrock heads were ported or not. If they aren't, then Edelbrock publishes the flow numbers on their web site and in their catalog. Some people are suspicious, but I believe their numbers to be fairly accurate.
Alvin

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 1450
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 08-21-2001 02:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Alvin,
I haven't had the Edel heads ported as of yet, BUT - I don't have them bolted on yet either,,, I'm still debating if I should spring for it or not.

As I recall, the heads in stock form only flow good up to about 5500rpms... but my plan is, once I've got it bolted together, to spin it faster than that. For that reason, I'm leaning toward having them ported some yet before I bolt them on... and then I wonder whether or not I should go the NEXT step and have them flow'd to ensure the porting is all good...

It's hard for me to know just where to stop sometimes. -- (I really DO know though, "Ya stop when the $$$ runs out!")

Ryan

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albatross
Journeyman

Posts: 28
From: NZ
Registered: Sep 2001

posted 09-04-2001 10:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for albatross     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I take it everyone here is running 2bolt mains and the 460 bottom end is up to it?

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 1450
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 09-04-2001 10:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yeah, most guys are...however, some of them are using a main cap stud girdle on their 2-bolt main blocks. I'm not sure just where the cut off is HP-wise... If you don't know about it, you may want to check out this 429/460 site for some more thoughts on the subject:

http://network54.com/Forum/85220

Ryan

------------------
The '3-Pedal Attitude' Kid
in a '69 FB w/ 306 now, but
the 460+ is coming... :D

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TomP
Gearhead

Posts: 4780
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99

posted 09-04-2001 01:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for TomP   Click Here to Email TomP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
note on that Cougar rear end housing... they are scrawny thin things necking down to 2 3/4" where the u-bolts attach and have thin tubes (3/16") , a whack-O-torque and you'll be bending the tubes forward. A better bet is to narrow a thicker wall big car/ truck 9" housing and use 3" U-bolts and shock mount plates.

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