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Author Topic:   Stiff Sidewall Slicks? Suspension too...
n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 1511
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 05-23-2001 04:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, it's mustang transformation time.

The leaf spring are going to go, and are going to be replaced with Koni coil-overs and Ladder Bars. The car will be mini-tubbed, and the rubber will be a 29x11 slick.
Questions...

My car launches pretty violently with the nitrous and 4-speed.

I was thinking about going with the 29x10.5W Hoosier, which is a stiff sidewall tire. I hear these stiff sidewall tires are good for heavy/hard launching cars. (my car is 3300lbs with me in it)

Would this be a good choice, or would the standard sidewall tire be the better one here?

I know the stiff sidewall tire is heavier. I've read where some cars pick up in the
60ft, but lose a little mph.

I'll probably have to try both to find out what works best on -my- car, but opinions from people with experience with these tires would be nice.

As for the wheel width, I'm undecided between a 10" and 12" rim. The tread width is 11". I was thinking of using a 12" wheel for the slicks, and a 10" for a set of 12.5x15 MT Sportsmans for looks. (about the same measurements as the slicks, maybe a tad smaller) A buddy has the same tire on a Chevy II with a 10" wheel, and they look about right. Any opinions here? Especially on the slicks?

As for a "locater", I'm undecided. The car sees a LOT of street use, and it's curvy
here in West Virginia, so a diagonal link seems a little flimsy. A panhard bar (especially if it's a little short) tends to move the axle from side to side as the suspension moves. The length on my car would be right on the limit for what is recommended by Chris Alston Chassisworks. The panhard bar would be nice for its strength, but for street use, I chose shocks with a 7" travel, so the side to side movement might be excessive...

Has anyone here have any experience with a Watts link? This looks like a good way to get a strong setup that properly locates the axle... It just looks a bit heavy and cumbersome to fabricate.

The springs are 14" 115lb units.

Oh, I'm going to be picking up the power a bit with a new aluminum headed engine as well. Hopefully the car will be done within the next couple years...

Thanks!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/motorcitymustang/cmml/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367

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Butch Jennings
Gearhead

Posts: 577
From: No. California
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 05-24-2001 01:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Butch Jennings   Click Here to Email Butch Jennings     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

I wouldn't use a ladder bar on a car that is gonna see much street use, regardless of what kind of locater you use, a ladder bar will not let the rear end move around without binding unless it's moving straight up and down in the car.

------------------
Butch
460 powered 1967 Comet Cyclone
10.271 @ 130.069
Butcher's Home Page
"Friends don't let friends drive Chevys"

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Rory McNeil
Gearhead

Posts: 1192
From: Surrey, B.C. Canada
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 05-24-2001 04:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rory McNeil   Click Here to Email Rory McNeil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mike, although I`m not familiar with launching with nitrous, I DO have some experiance with stiff sidewall slicks. My 78 Fairmont (428 - Jerico 4 speed) runs a 14x32" slick,& the stiff sidewall tire does offer a better 60 ft, but loses more than "a little" MPH. On my car, the best pass with a regular slick (Hoosier DO5) was :
1.42 60ft.,10.28 ET @130.6 mph. After putting on a pair of Goodyear 1984 stiff sidewall slicks, 60 ft. dropped to 1.380, but the ET slowed to 10.42 @ 127 mph. After playing with the set up, I got almost as fast as my best with the reg. slicks,1.38 60 ft., 10.32 ET @ 130 mph., but I bet a new set of reg. slicks would be faster yet, as my Hoosiers were a couple of years old.On the 14x32`s , the stiff sidewalls were about 10 lbs apiece heavier than the reg. sidewalls, quite a increase. Although I have never heard of a stick car that works with radial slicks, a couple of local Super/Stock cars (ss/ka`s) have picked up a full tenth by switching from 11.5 or 12.2 Firestones to the new Hoosier radial slick. (either 10.5 or 11.5, I don`t recall)The radials don`t grow however, so you either need to re gear the diff, or let it wind its guts out at the top end.

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 1511
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 05-24-2001 07:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks guys!

The ladder bars are Chris Alston "Pro-Street" units that have polyurethane bushings in the rod ends... to allow a little "give". The front rod end is MASSIVE. It uses 1" threads, and is quite heavy duty looking.

Damn... 10lbs heavier EACH! Hmmm... time for some more research.

Thanks!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/motorcitymustang/cmml/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 4357
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 05-24-2001 08:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Never having used anything but a stiff side wall slick on my car I cant say whether or not a regular slick would be faster. I really, REALLY like my stiff sidewall Hoosiers though.
I do have a buddy who went from a reg Goodyear (14x32)to the same stiff sidewall Hoosier that I run (32x13.5W), and his car ran within thouandths with the Hoosiers that it did with the Goodyears.

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Dave_C
Gearhead

Posts: 737
From: Gadsden, Al
Registered: Aug 99

posted 05-24-2001 09:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dave_C   Click Here to Email Dave_C     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'll second the Hoosier 32X13.5W. I put a set on my car a couple of weeks ago. Had a set of regular 32X14 Goodyear.

Amazing difference. The car drives so much better on the top end. The Goodyears wanted to skate around. White knuckles for sure. The Hoosier is like going for a Sunday drive.

In my case the 60 ft actually slowed down by .01-.02, but it picked up by the 330 and the final ET dropped by .05, mph up by .5 mph.

I think the 60 ft diff is due to these Hoosiers being on the big side. Most drag slicks vary a little in size from set to set. These have 104" rollout, the same as a 33" slick specs. They are supposed to spec at 101".

Overall. I'm very pleased. They might have been a little heavier, maybe 4 lbs over the reg Goodyear's.

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Butch Jennings
Gearhead

Posts: 577
From: No. California
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 05-24-2001 10:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Butch Jennings   Click Here to Email Butch Jennings     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by n2oMike:
Thanks guys!

The ladder bars are Chris Alston "Pro-Street" units that have polyurethane bushings in the rod ends... to allow a little "give". The front rod end is MASSIVE. It uses 1" threads, and is quite heavy duty looking.



A ladder bar by design will not allow the rear tires to move independent of each other....it will bind. Bolt the bars onto the rear end on the floor and try to move the front of one bar indepentent of the other and you'll see what I mean, it doesn't matter what type of end you use on the front....even if it provides a little "give" it's still bound up.

------------------
Butch
460 powered 1967 Comet Cyclone
10.271 @ 130.069
Butcher's Home Page
"Friends don't let friends drive Chevys"

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 1511
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 06-05-2001 08:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Alex... might pick your brain on this one if you've got a spare moment. Thanks, I know you've got a busy schedule!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/motorcitymustang/cmml/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367

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TomP
Gearhead

Posts: 4780
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99

posted 06-06-2001 12:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for TomP   Click Here to Email TomP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mike ...Butch is right... if those roads are curvy better make out your will...don't worry about leaving the car to anyone,won't be that much left of it.

Ladder bars are NOT for street use. If they were made of 2x3 tubing (like Thunderbolts) and use a large rubber or poly bushing and a front bolt of 3/4" or bigger then OK... car will handle like hospital gurney with 4 casters,but it won't break,just bend the rear end housing.

The only streetable way would be a poly bushed 4 link, regular rod ends will wear out with road grit and be very harsh riding (think of sitting on a metal wheeled skateboard riding a cobblestone road ) If using poly bushings the brackets should have the bars spaced wider apart to minimize the inevitable pinion angle change with bushing deflection. This will hook ,be strong and safe The rod ends with poly bushings can be gotten from Art Morrison and others.

And definately a panhard, put the axle end as close to the brake as you can,run it behind the housing,not above.

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Doc
Gearhead

Posts: 466
From: Redwood City, Ca. USA
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 06-06-2001 02:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Doc   Click Here to Email Doc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As long as we're knockin ladder bars throw me in there! They not only don't handle on the street but many race cars have bought the wall because of them. They are only happy with the car going straight, when your crossed up they are working against you. 4 link is the way!

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 1511
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 06-06-2001 07:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
These are the pro-street ladder bars from Chris Alston Chassisworks. They do have the polyurethane bushed rod ends, and are quite beefy with ends on the front having 1" threads.

I haven't started the project yet, but do have all the parts. I was wanting to keep some resemblance of the back seat... Do you guys think a 4-link would be -that- much of an advantage over this setup? I was thinking the resistance to body roll of the ladder bar might be a good thing.

Why, and -how- would I mount the panhard behind the housing? The bracket that came with the pahnard mounts it on top of the housing. I am aware that it should be as long as possible to minimize side to side movement as the suspension moves up and down.

It's been several months since the bars were ordered. The boxes have been opened, but the parts have never been mocked up or installed. I wonder what kind of a return policy they would have on a trade like this. They sell the 4-link with poly bushings as well.

Just thinkin' out loud... Never built an aftermarket suspension before, but it will be RIGHT when it's finished.

Thanks for any input.

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/motorcitymustang/cmml/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367

[This message has been edited by n2oMike (edited 06-06-2001).]

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Doc
Gearhead

Posts: 466
From: Redwood City, Ca. USA
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 06-06-2001 07:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Doc   Click Here to Email Doc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mike I'm an opinionated old coot and with that said, why would you need a rear seat ? A 4 link will drive out of situations a ladder bar will jump and bite and throw the car into all sorts of new learning on the fly handeling deals. The 2 most common things I see on wrecked and soon to be wrecked drag cars are steering and bound up rear suspension that keeps the suspension loaded. If you overhook a ladder bar the car won't get in trouble and you'll never have to worry, you also won't go as quick/fast as the car is capable of. A 4 link allows you to get it all on both ends of the strip and come back for more. The 4 link is harder to learn if you have someone else build the car but by the time you learn how to install it correctly yourself you'll be able to hook in a car wash or run hard on the best biting track. It'll also drive and hook on the street well. Ladders are popular with the Super Gas crowd where 7 and 8 second cars run high 9 second times and the car wouldn't get crossed up without the driver with a rock on the loud peddle. For those of us that'll put it on kill for the good time slip ladders are not the thing.

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 1511
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 06-06-2001 08:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, sh*t...

I -was- just going to leave the rear seat in place and install the ladder bars. Now, it looks like safety might be an issue if I start putting some serious power down to the ground. It looks like the nitrous/4-speed combo would be happier with the 4-link. It seems street manners would also be improved.

What I did NOT want, was a RACE looking car. Right now, my car looks pretty much resto-mod. It looks nice and mild til' it blasts off the line going all crazy with the nitrous on as the 4-speed gets rowed. It's not even that loud with the Edelbrock mufflers.

Maybe, just maybe, I'll be able to keep a hollowed out rear seat intact so it doesn't look like an all out race car. The rest of the interior is still going to be there too... stereo, carpet, heater, wipers, vanity mirror, etc. I like the sleeper look.

The tires will be either 10.5W x 29 Hoosiers with the stiff sidewall, or the regular 11 x 29. Both have the same 11" tread. I'm still torn between a 10" and 12" rim. The street tires will be 29 x 12.5 MT Sportsmans,
(not the Pro's). These are tubeless thick sidewall tires that should survive quite a few burnouts.

Should I install some sort of sway bar for these curvy roads? I know they also let it launch straighter. However, room might be a problem with the panhard bar.

I'll probably be going with the C-A pro-street 4-link with the urethane ends if you guys think it's the right way to go...

Anybody interested in a set of top quality Chris Alston Chassisworks Pro-Street Ladder bars, along with the front cross member for $300, shipping included? These are brand new, and are the best. They have the adjustable turnbuckle at the rear, and the HUGE front rod end. They are urethane bushed. The tech guy at C-A Chassisworks said the boss's son has a nitrous Chevelle running 9.7's with them... They ARE quite strong, and fit under the stock floors of most cars.

For easiest installation, leave the leaf springs and housing ON the car. Install a bar across the top of the wheelhousing arch between the frame rails for the upper shock mount, and another bar ahead between the frame rails for the front ladder bar mount. Install the brackets to the housing, then attach the ladder bars with the old rear suspension still in place... this way it is already all lined up. Remove the old suspension, and you're ready to rock-on!

Thanks for all the input!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/motorcitymustang/cmml/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367

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TomP
Gearhead

Posts: 4780
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99

posted 06-10-2001 02:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for TomP   Click Here to Email TomP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mike

Using ladders bars for their anti-roll capabilities is exactly what you don't wanna be doing... its like using the pistons to control valve float instead of stronger valvesprings!

When those things resist roll its because they are binding... travel around a corner with a bump in it and see if ya just can't rip a bracket clean off the housing. The 1" ends are plenty strong, but its gonna be the housing brackets and crossmember brackets that twist the most.

My car bends 9" housings with merry abandon because of the stock Thunderbolt type bars, and i don't try and turn corners or drive on unlevel surfaces.

Even an unequal length 4 link will be OK,and still fit a back seat.

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jkilroy
Gearhead

Posts: 1703
From: Vicksburg, MS
Registered: Dec 99

posted 06-10-2001 09:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jkilroy   Click Here to Email jkilroy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Why don't you stick with the leaf springs? There are a ton of cars out there running well with them.

------------------
Jay Kilroy
68' Fastback GT 390
"No such thing as a cam thats too big"

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 1511
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 06-10-2001 10:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The main reason I'm not sticking with the leaf springs is because they limit tire size. Right now, even with a little trimming on the quarter panel is a 28x9 slick. Traction with the 4-speed and nitrous is really hard to come by. It would probably be fine with an automatic, but... that's no fun.

Major cutting to the quarters would be required for anything larger. I figure with a good suspension and a 29x11 slick, 60ft times should consistently be at least down into the 1.4's. The best it's ever done is 1.43, but that was on a PERFECT track with tons of VHT all over the surface, and all the stars in the right place.

I've been researching ways to make a 4-link work... They eliminate the rear seat, but it looks like that's just how it's going to be. Chris Alston's Chassisworks has the urethane bushed rod ends, but they need to be taken loose to be adjusted... homie don't play dat'! Will the spherical rod ends be fine for street use? I guess they'll make a little more noise, I just hope they don't wear out too quickly. I might also try and install their sway bar. Their stuff can be seen at www.cachassisworks.com

Going to the 4-link is going to involve a lot more abuse of the bank account...

Thanks!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/motorcitymustang/cmml/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367

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TomP
Gearhead

Posts: 4780
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99

posted 06-11-2001 08:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for TomP   Click Here to Email TomP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mike

wait till Alex is back... SuperStock rear suspension involves maximum hook without cutting the floorpan. I'm sure he has some early Mustang experience.

If 4 link can be made to work in a 63-up Corvette it will fit anywhere. I have seen wheelstanding cars with top bars only about 8" long.

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 1511
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 06-21-2001 08:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, I've decided what to do.

I'm sending the Pro-Street ladder bar stuff back to Chris Alston's Chassisworks (at a helluva loss with a 20% resocking fee and shipping) and getting a a 4-link setup.

It's a regular 4-link with 4130 all steel rod ends, complete rear frame kit, anti-roll bar, 7" travel aluminum double adjustable Koni coil overs, etc. I'm a little undecided about how far to tub it, but the tires aren't going to be any larger than 29x11 slicks on 12" wheel for the strip, and MT Sportsmans 12.5x29 (tubeless) on the street on a 10" wheel. I might tub it out a little more than needed in case the car wants a bigger tire in the future.

Who knows when a stroked 351W on nitrous might get the call?

Oh well, bye bye back seat!

The 4-link should work a lot better on the street than the ladder bar, and with the anti-roll bar, shoudn't handle too bad on the street. If I can stuff a long enough panhard bar in there, I'll use one as a locater, if not we'll have to go with a diagonal link.

All this is going to be a few dollars and and a few years down the road. As for next year, I'll probably get the block work done, and stick another engine in there and do the best I can to hook it up with the slapper bars and 9" slicks. It will be fun.

Later!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/motorcitymustang/cmml/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367

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