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Author Topic:   Help! With bogging problem, Please...
steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 6352
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 05-05-2001 04:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OK , we finally got the '66 to hook at Sacramento Raceway. Haven't been able to run at Sears Point for the last month. So we trailered it to Sac. tonight and met up with Tim. It was a looong evening and I'm still up, asking my lame question. Here's what happened.

The first run we got a good waterbox burn and Melissa staged and launched at about 3500 as she usually does at Sears. 18 psi in the et-streets, we usually run 16 at Sears. The car hooked great, the front end jerked into the sky for the first 20', (don't know if it lifted the tires off but it was very good for this car) and then bogged and fell on its face and recovered at about 80' into the run. Ran a 2.15 60'er. Next pass I had her launch at 4500 rpm, and it did the same thing with about a 2.01 60'er. The next pass I had her launch at 5500+ and it ran a 1.91 60'er (still running flat after the launch, but not falling on its face and ran a 12.85 @ almost 109 mph) Without the bog, it coulda been a mid 12 sec run. Anyway that track has big teeth and the changes that we've done to the car are working, but now we have a new problem. How do we cure the bog? The carb is a 750 holley vac sec, lightest yellow spring. I raised the rear bowl's float level to the top of the sight hole. Still no jet extensions, I'll get some this weekend! Timing is 39* at 3000 rpm, and it's a 351w w/ edel. perf. rpm heads and intake. It usually has a broad power curve, but.... It's a man. tranny. TIA We appreciate any and all tips from those that have been there and done that.

SteveW

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capri man
Gearhead

Posts: 3258
From: doerun, ga.
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 05-05-2001 08:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for capri man   Click Here to Email capri man     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
hi stevr, i would be willing to bet that the jet extentions will cure the problem. just be sure to order the whole kit with the noched float. i think it is barry grant.
good luck----mike r-----capri man

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Butch Jennings
Gearhead

Posts: 577
From: No. California
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 05-05-2001 11:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Butch Jennings   Click Here to Email Butch Jennings     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Yea Steve, it sounds like the jet extensions will help the problem. I don't like to use the type that push over the outside of the jet (Barry Grant, Moroso) I've had them fall off of the jet and they're generally a pain in the butt. When I bought my HP series Dominators they came with extensions that screw into the metering block and the jet screws into it....very positive and a neat deal. I'm not sure of a part number, but they are the way to go.

------------------
Butch
460 powered 1967 Comet Cyclone
10.27 @ 129.997
Butcher's Home Page
"Friends don't let friends drive Chevys"

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66351stang
Gearhead

Posts: 677
From: sayville,newyork
Registered: Jul 2000

posted 05-05-2001 11:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 66351stang   Click Here to Email 66351stang     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
deffinetly sounds like a fuel problem steve..
sounds like on the launch the fuel is flowing back, you come down and the car picks back up..

------------------
ponycar66,have you flown in a ford latley???????
66-COUPE W/351SVO
glad i had a v-8 !!!!!!
84.5 gt350-61 falcon 302
have a great day!!!!!!!!

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ragtopjr
Gearhead

Posts: 2447
From: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada.
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 05-05-2001 12:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ragtopjr   Click Here to Email ragtopjr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
what are you running for pump cam? I think more than likely jet extensions are your problem, but lauching that high if you do not have the proper pump cam you will have used your pump shot before launch and it will not be helping you at all.

------------------
Ed
Heart mods:Trick High flow titanium valve ported & polished Listen close: "tic tic tic" No folks thats not a noisy lifter thats the sound of big flow!
1984 5.0L LX Conv 3600 lbs 13.41 at 101.89 SIR
http://ragtopjr.hypermart.net/
http://ragtop-racing.stangnet.com/
http://mbmustangs.tripod.com/index.htm

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steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 6352
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 05-05-2001 02:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks everyone,

Ed, to rev the engine to 6000 only takes about 1/4 throttle so it still has a pump shot. If we go to a two step and launch with the peddle down, then the pump shot wouldn't exist. Besides the pump shot is all used up in the first 20'.

What does everyone think about secondary springs? I think they should stay wide open through the launch. But, should they? I mean should I try a tighter spring? The more I think about this I just want them to stay open and pull like a "raped ape" But if the tires don't slip, there's no convertor to slip, and something has to happen. Like the rpms dropping below the power curve, with the secondaries wide open it will bog. I'll order the extension kit on Monday from Summitt! I have a spring kit, what do you all think?!?

Thanks again,

SteveW

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Mark T 7724
Journeyman

Posts: 78
From: Palmdale, CA
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 05-05-2001 03:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mark T 7724     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Steve'66 Try getting a "Bowl Vent Extension" a lot of times when a car launches hard fuel will slosh out of the bowl vent and flood the car momentarily. Your problem seems to me to be Jet Extensions both of these items are usually required add-ons, Also float level is set by inserting a 3/8" drill bit between the float and top of the bowl. This method is tried and true and has never failed us.

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Butch Jennings
Gearhead

Posts: 577
From: No. California
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 05-05-2001 04:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Butch Jennings   Click Here to Email Butch Jennings     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Steve,

I dug up some part numbers for you. The jet extensions are Holley part# 122-5000. Holley makes a notched float to use with them, the float part# 116-10 includes the jet extensions and part# 116-11 is the float without the extensions. Moroso also makes a notched float part# 65228. I don't have a Barry Grant part# but they also make a notched float.

------------------
Butch
460 powered 1967 Comet Cyclone
10.27 @ 129.997
Butcher's Home Page
"Friends don't let friends drive Chevys"

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Nos351C
Gearhead

Posts: 3000
From: Rohnert Park, CA USA M&M member#591
Registered: Jul 2000

posted 05-05-2001 05:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Nos351C   Click Here to Email Nos351C     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey Steve
Good to hear you guys are finally gettgin it hooked up
How was the track prep last night? a friend running a c***y and I going out there soon to work on his nuitrous tune a bit...

------------------
Marcus
Warsteiner- Because Life is too short to drink cheap beer!
"You just got passed by a GIRL!" -A.J. Foyt
My World

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steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 6352
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 05-06-2001 12:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for the help guys! I'll order the extenders and floats and bowl vent extensions Monday. You're the best, I just want all of you to know we appreciate the tips.

Marcus, that track has serious bite! It's not a big time facility, but they do not spare the vht track bite. They sent a street car down the track to check for debris and I thought it was gonna get stuck to the track. LOL It sounded like it was driving on the sticky side of duct tape.

Give your chebbie freind our condolences. He'll probably break his p.o.s. 10 bolt rear.

SteveW

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Nos351C
Gearhead

Posts: 3000
From: Rohnert Park, CA USA M&M member#591
Registered: Jul 2000

posted 05-06-2001 12:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Nos351C   Click Here to Email Nos351C     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It's still pretty ghetto huh? The last time I was there (18+ months ago) I overheard folks talking about them planning to upgrade it a bit... guess that never happened...
as for my buddy, well if it blows up, it blows up, I don't have to fix it

------------------
Marcus
Warsteiner- Because Life is too short to drink cheap beer!
"You just got passed by a GIRL!" -A.J. Foyt
My World

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steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 6352
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 05-06-2001 12:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Marcus,

I took my wife along last night and she hasn't been there since 1975 when Shirley Muldowney beat Don Garlitts in her pink dragster! Her comments were "this place hasn't changed a bit, did they stock pile a million gallons of blue paint? Cause it's even the same color!" Of course there's some dryrot on the bleacher seats....

It's still a place that caters to the racer, and doesn't seem to be as concerned with lawsuits as other tracks. You'll be able to stand right next to your buddies car while it's launching (if you want to trust the 10 bolt!)

SteveW

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I65Stang
Gearhead

Posts: 5923
From: Antelope, CA
Registered: Jun 99

posted 05-06-2001 12:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for I65Stang   Click Here to Email I65Stang     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yeah, I like Sac Raceway, more of a hometown feel (ok, ok, so Sac is my hometown but you know what I mean :>). I am gonna have to run the '88 and '65 out there (lol, a whole 20 miles from my house, been there tons but never raced :>)

------------------
Tim
M&M Member #35
1965 Mustang coupe, 200 ci w/ a Holley 2300, Clifford header, and true duals w/ 26" Smithys
1988 Mustang GT AOD vert, totally stock for now, 15.810 @ 88.871 mph 100% bone stock with no traction
1976 Silverline Comoro 18' trihull ski boat, 188 hp 302 I/O, everyone needs more toys
http://all.at/mustang
https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/I65Stang.html

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Nos351C
Gearhead

Posts: 3000
From: Rohnert Park, CA USA M&M member#591
Registered: Jul 2000

posted 05-06-2001 01:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Nos351C   Click Here to Email Nos351C     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Heh its bad enough having to be seen wrenching voluntarily on a chevy... Steve you think I am going to risk it all and let the F*&^ing thing shoot an axle at me?!?!?
my bet is actually on popping a head gasket first...9.5:1 small block, unknown brand of head gaskets, iron heads... he doesn't care if *I* blow it up, but he is petrified of blowing it up...

------------------
Marcus
Warsteiner- Because Life is too short to drink cheap beer!
"You just got passed by a GIRL!" -A.J. Foyt
My World

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steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 6352
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 05-06-2001 01:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Marcus,

How much "juice" are you gonna give it? It sounds like fun to me, blowing up chebbies is one of my favorite pastimes!

SteveW

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19686
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 05-07-2001 01:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Steve, the jet extensions and float vent extensions are both good ideas for common Holley ailments, but I have another theory to throw into the equasion. What or how is the fuel pressure going down track? Is it possible that the "bog" is being caused by the car running out of gas at the point of the bog? The recovery aspect is what turned my wheels.

------------------
Alex Denysenko Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
Fleet of FoMoCo products
Moneymaker Bio
US Class Nationals link

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steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 6352
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 05-07-2001 01:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Alex,

Thanks for the thought. We don't have a remote fuel pressure gauge, so I don't really know. It's got a Holley red pump at the tank feeding the stock line fuel line to the mechanical pump up front. Runs about 7 psi normally. Are you thinking it could be time to rear sump the tank? Or keep it full? It had about 1/3 tank of gas.

SteveW

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 1450
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 05-07-2001 03:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
SteveW,
What I think Alex is suggesting is you may benefit from installing a fuel pressure gage that can be read while going down the track/road (in-other-words, while under load). You could either mount a gage on the cowl (permanently or temperarily) or inside the firewall - but you really should use a diaphram unit to keep the gasoline out of the driver's space if you want it inside. It may show you your fuel regulator is out of adjustment or junk. Good Luck!
Ryan

P.S.
What diameter is the fuel feed line coming up to the carb? You may benefit from installing a "fuel log" at the carb...

[This message has been edited by Ryan Wilke (edited 05-07-2001).]

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steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 6352
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 05-07-2001 06:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ryan,

This is a "low budget" HS bracket car. The fuel pressure regulator is the 5/16" fuel line. LOL The line to the carb is 3/8 steel with hose connections to the 3/8" chrome dual feed line. Maybe it's time to upgrade the fuel delivery system.

Thanks for the ideas, as I'm looking through the Summit catalog. Hummmm wonder when Melissa gets paid?

SteveW

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19686
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 05-07-2001 07:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would replace the 5/16 line with 3/8ths no matter what Steve. You can use aluminum from a hardware store. That may be your entire problem. You may be draining the bowls of the carb and the line is to small to recover.

------------------
Alex Denysenko Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
Fleet of FoMoCo products
Moneymaker Bio
US Class Nationals link

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TomP
Gearhead

Posts: 4780
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99

posted 05-07-2001 07:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for TomP   Click Here to Email TomP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't think the bowl draining is gonna be a problem till near 1/2 track...my car can make an eigth mile pass with the fuel pump not running... the gas in 4 float bowls is enough with my dual carbs.

I think like Mark its sloshing, bowl vents can be made from pieces of 5/16" fuel line tubing,make the front one as tall as air cleaner or hood clearance allows... i put a bend in mine facing rearward so if gas does slosh out it overshoots the rear barrels and lands behind the carb (in my enclosed airbox)

Similarly,fuel line size is not gonna be a problem until the bowls run out near 1/2 track. Even a 1/4" line will keep an unloaded engine fed at ANY RPM.

Easy way to tell if the carb vents are sloshing would be a puff of black smoke while stumbling...is there?

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TomP
Gearhead

Posts: 4780
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99

posted 05-07-2001 07:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for TomP   Click Here to Email TomP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
i'd go 3/8 line too... and at least hook a temporary guage up if nothing else just to check pressure.

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TomP
Gearhead

Posts: 4780
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99

posted 05-07-2001 08:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for TomP   Click Here to Email TomP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
oh and... Ryan... there are now electric fuel pressure guages , i saw the Autometer one... i'd think that would be the best option nowadays

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steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 6352
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 05-07-2001 08:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Tom,

No, no black smoke, just acted like it ran out of fuel. I've got the extensions and vent tude coming from Summit. We'll try that first, then upgrade the fuel system. Wouldn't the fuel system be taxed just as hard if it didn't hook? It doesn't bog when the tires spin. (Just thinking out loud) Thanks again!

SteveW

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