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Author
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Topic: Max HP
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Clevo377
Gearhead Posts: 312
From: Blackburn, Victoria, Australia
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 03-24-2001 06:56 PM
   
Anyone know what the maximum HP a Cleveland block can take? I'm thinking about using a centrifical supercharger. Would a four bolt block be necessary? Max RPM will be 6500. Paul
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 6098
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 04-01-2001 08:33 AM
I'll take a stab at it. I think why why some folks dont answer, me included , is they dont know the answer to your questions. I have never messed around with a supercharger.
BUT, I do know that the motor I ran last year was making around 600hp at the flywheel and I broke a cylinder in a partially filled block. I was then told I neede to fill it up within an inch or so of the deck.Leave just enuff room for the water to get thru the heads. But I have stock rods, and heavy pistons that I turn a bit (7800) and was told that those are hard on the cylinder walls too. I do have a couple of budies I race with that have stroker clevelands with partially filled blocks making in the 600-650hp range that never hurt anything, but their rod/stroke ratio is a ton better than mine and the parts are lighter. Truthfully, I would be surprised if the stock block could handle that much even if it is completely filled. But I am no expert, so take it for what it is worth. I hope I helped a little.
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Fordwiser
Gearhead Posts: 390
From: Metamora, Illinois
Registered: Dec 2000
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posted 04-01-2001 11:29 AM
I agree with Kid, the biggest concern wouldn't be the bottom end strength of the block, it would be cylinder bore strength,and that is with 2 bolt or 4 bolt blocks. If the car sees any street duty the block filling wouldn't be the answer,(at least not more then half way,don't think that would help much anyway!) Think the best bet would be to have perspective blocks sonic checked carefully for core shift and wall thickness. Maybe since Clevelands were produced longer and later down under, it's still possible to find decent low milage standard bore blocks. Hope this helps! Roger
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68fb
Journeyman Posts: 42
From: LakeStevens, Wa. USA
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 04-01-2001 09:35 PM
A 4 bolt block is not necessary. How much HP do you want to develop? Last big one I know of is putting out just under 525 to the rear wheels. It's a 70 Winsor block, stroked, fuel injected, and with 10 lbs. through a 600b procharger. The lower end is naturally in a girdle, and it spins about 6000rpm.
If you are thinking of a supercharger, remember that compression is critical, as detonation is the enemy of supercharging.
Had a set of of Edlebrock RPMs on a 9.5:1 Winsor, and while they were getting ported, I had the chambers dished and opened up a little to lower that compression as I was going to run 6 lbs through a Holley 750.
Make sure that the camshaft is compatible with the blower also. 112-114 lobe separation and I think the split profile works better with a little more lift/duration on the exhaust side to help out the Ford exhaust flow problems.
Just my opinion.
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Clevo377
Gearhead Posts: 312
From: Blackburn, Victoria, Australia
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 04-02-2001 03:46 AM
Thanks for the replies guys  My main reason for asking is because I'm still deciding on which supercharger to get. It's no use getting the larger one if the block won't take the extra Hp made. The smaller unit will supposidly give me +65% (~750Hp). The larger one up to +100% (~900hp)
Is this a rediculus expectation?? I want reliability as well. Paul
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Clevo377
Gearhead Posts: 312
From: Blackburn, Victoria, Australia
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 04-02-2001 03:55 AM
On the subject of cams I have come up with the following grind...224?/244? @ 0.050"
286?/310? adv.
115?/119? lobe centres
28? BTDC 78? ABDC in
94? BBDC 36? ATDC ex
117? LSA
0.512 in
0.588 ex Is this a feasable grind for a blower??? Paul
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 43151
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99
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posted 04-02-2001 08:51 AM
Jack Roush has been quoted as saying the 2 bolt 351C block is just as strong as the 4 bolt block. You can add the 4 bolt caps to a 2 bolt block if you want. Someone was selling a set of 351C 4 bolt caps a few weeks ago on ebay.------------------
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Loc
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L Disposable Commuter
"Keep your driveway all Ford!"
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SG236
Gearhead Posts: 416
From: Jasper, TN, USA
Registered: Dec 2000
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posted 04-02-2001 09:16 AM
Kid, I haven't responded either because of the supercharger issue, just don't anything about them. I have the 4 bolt caps on my clev and it is making about 550hp. Now if I can get the d#*$m thing to run Russ Hood
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68fb
Journeyman Posts: 42
From: LakeStevens, Wa. USA
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 04-02-2001 10:05 AM
Which manufacturer of supercharger are you considering?
I've done a few cars and I prefer the Procharger made by ATI fow a few reasons.
The cam you've listed sure provides for a lot of exhaust flow. What valve sizes would you apply with that cam?
There's massive overlap for scavenging.
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Clevo377
Gearhead Posts: 312
From: Blackburn, Victoria, Australia
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 04-03-2001 03:17 AM
68Fb, the valves are std sized 4V. The overlap is'nt that bad (64? which is around the same for a cam in the 224? range). I am curious as to whether anyone has used a cam with the lobe centres at 115? and 119?. And what effect this will have??
I'm looking at a Procharger D1 or D1X. Thanks everyone for your input. Paul
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68fb
Journeyman Posts: 42
From: LakeStevens, Wa. USA
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 04-03-2001 11:09 AM
The exhaust event is sure occuring early on the cam you listed, with the 117 LSA and exhaust valve opening at 94 BBDC. I know in theory this should give alot of low end torque, but you may build up alot of pressure in the headers, possibly bleeding back up to a cylinder on the same bank where valve overlap is occurring,(should'nt really be a problem with boost), but with a good efficient exhaust system, the exhaust event does'nt need to occur that early, and you'll be scavenging fine. 112-114 has worked pretty well for me in the past.
The D1 is an excellent blower, and was designed,I believe, to operate with an intercooler for maximum efficiency. How much boost are you going to run,(pulley size),and are you going to run an intercooler?
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TomP
Gearhead Posts: 5761
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99
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posted 04-03-2001 01:49 PM
I've never really been into Clevelands... or even been to Cleveland ,Ohio for that matter  .... but i've seen an awful lot of them split cylinder walls... anything very high compression seems to do it. I think one local racer has gone through more blocks the past few years than the Kalittas (TopFuel) Sonic checking should be mandatory, and running a standard bore even if it will be a bit loose. The 1970's ProStocks all used furnace brazed sleeves or special super thick blocks. Recall Dyno Dons Cleveland match race 400" motor had a 4.25" bore!  He also had access to an aluminum block too.
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Fordwiser
Gearhead Posts: 390
From: Metamora, Illinois
Registered: Dec 2000
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posted 04-03-2001 04:05 PM
Another thing, if you have a block that needs bored, you can have it sonic checked, then have the cylinders moved around a little to hit more in the center of the cores. In other words the cylider is bored more to thicker side then the thin side.
Roger
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 04-03-2001 04:46 PM
Hey guys, sorry but I have been gone for 9 days and have been to tired at night to play on the laptop for more than 30 minutes or so.  There were several blown alcohol 351C powered dragsters in the 70's. They used stock FoMoCo blocks (sleeved) and ran in the mid to low 6 second range at over 210 MPH. I would say that they developed over 2000 HP on alcohol with a roots type blower. ------------------
Alex Denysenko Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
Fleet of FoMoCo products
Moneymaker Bio
US Class Nationals link [This message has been edited by Moneymaker (edited 04-03-2001).]
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TomP
Gearhead Posts: 5761
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99
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posted 04-03-2001 07:39 PM
AlexRIGHT!! I'm forgetting about that.... Frank Pegregon also drove the Montana Express blown 351C alky dragster just a few years ago, it ran 6.0's as i recall. Some very hot blown 351C's in Aussie drag racing too. The cost of doing that sleeving would be high, maybe a used 1970's race motor is for sale? High Ported (alum plate) heads are fairly common,the blocks must be out there too.
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Clevo377
Gearhead Posts: 312
From: Blackburn, Victoria, Australia
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 04-04-2001 06:18 AM
Thanks again for your input. There is a 4 bolt block for sale in a local paper. It has 8 new sleeves. Is a sleeved block any weaker than a normal one. 68Fb I was planning on running about 17lbs boost with a 3 core sheetmetal intercooler. Paul
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 04-04-2001 02:09 PM
No Paul, it's actually much stronger. That's the entire purpose of sleeving it. The casting reenforces the sleeves. All of the top running Stock and Superstock 428 CJ's in the country are using sleeved 427 blocks. ------------------
Alex Denysenko Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
Fleet of FoMoCo products
Moneymaker Bio
US Class Nationals link
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