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Author Topic:   Big block connecting rods
Big Block Capri
Gearhead

Posts: 110
From: Essex, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 11-28-2000 12:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Big Block Capri   Click Here to Email Big Block Capri     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We run a 466 big block in our 1984 Capri. The bottom end runs a stock crank and rods with Wiseco forged pistons. We shift the car at 5800-6000 depending on the conditions and it will see 6300 going through the traps. I know that the logical answer is to go to a set of Eagle rods but I was wondering how far you can realisticly take a stock rod. We have replaced the stock bolts with ARP and other than polishing the beams and shot peening they're still the original 460 rod. I get different opinions from different people that I ask and I'm sure this will be no different. If you need any more info, just let me know.

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Paul Garant
"No replacement for displacement."

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Capri
Gearhead

Posts: 1163
From: Lyons, ILL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 11-28-2000 05:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Capri   Click Here to Email Capri     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey Paul,

I cant see why you cant use a stock set of rods providing they are in good shape. You are not buzzing 9000rpm like we do with Dads car. I buzz about 6000 with mine and I have to run stock rods. Unless you just want to spend the dough and make the bottom end absolutely bulletproof, then you can do it. I personally dont think you need to. Now if this was a small block stroker motor...........

Tony

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TomP
Gearhead

Posts: 3609
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99

posted 11-29-2000 04:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for TomP   Click Here to Email TomP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
i know a few guys with 460's going to 7000 , but you ought to have the spotfaced rods only and make sure they are centered. Many factory rods are very thin on one side when the bores arent in the middle of the forging, especially above the top of the pin bore. Find 8 good ones,and it'll be OK

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64 T-Boltish Fairlane 427 HR 4spd 10.05 at 133.7 so far ... arrgh ,so close!!

another 64Fairlane project 428 4spd
53 F350 ramptruck 428 4spd
88 Ranger 5.0 5speed
'bout half of a 67 Mustang FB was a 390 :-(

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 11493
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 11-29-2000 08:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
7000 RPM is not a problem with a well prepped set of "stock" rods. The key is x-raying for cracks and proper sizing with good bolts. Alex

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Alex Denysenko Co-Administrator and Moderator
Fleet of FoMoCo's too long to list!
http://superstockers.homestead.com/week.html

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F551
Gearhead

Posts: 124
From: Manitoba, Canada
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 11-30-2000 12:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for F551   Click Here to Email F551     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi guys - felt I must comment on this one!
We race a 68 Mustang with a Big Block, started with a pretty stock 429. As time went on we kept picking up. Soon we had a 460 running high 10s.

This is where we discovered the life span of the "stock rod". I think it was after three failures when we had a stroker crank built
(cast) and bought Eagle rods. We always used "truck" rods with good bolts, the last set were full floating pins, magged, polished and shotpeened. This work was done by an extremely reputable shop in our area.
The rods would stretch apart - in the middle - after about 95 passes. At that time we shifted at 6500 and thru the eyes at 6900. The last season with stock rods we ran 3.91 gears to get the revs down and see us thru the season until the new motor was done.

We now have two seasons on our 500cid, and life is good! It is inspected each winter,
the only issue has been we replaced the rod bolts - these have to come from Eagle (I think they were L19 - help me out here, memory is going) - that was a recomendation from Eagle after a friend had an Eagle rod fail (BBC). I shift this one at at 6200 and thru the eyes about 6900 - now run 10.6.

My opinion - if you keep revs and compression down you will be OK. If you want to go faster buy the Eagle rods with "good bolts" and the lightest piston you can afford. And the cranks seem bullet proof!

Take Care
Fred Senkow

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 11493
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 11-30-2000 11:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
To Fred and all other interested connecting rod users (lol). I have and do use the Eagle products. I am not fond of them for high tech programs. They are very heavy and are inconsistant in their measurments. I will only use them in a S&S (street and strip) package where cost is an issue. They are easily available and very inexpensive. That is their only attribute in my book. They do not make a precision piece, but then again you aren't paying for one either. For my SS (superstock) engines I use the Crower product. I am considering trying Cunningham this year. I will speak with them at the PRI show this weekend and look at several other brands also. Oliver also makes a fantastic nut and bolt rod. My favorite has always been Carrilo, but they are not legal for the type of racing that I do. We cannot use a cap screw rod unless it was factory equipped like a 427 or SCJ FE engine. More on this after the PRI show. Alex

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Alex Denysenko Co-Administrator and Moderator
Fleet of FoMoCo's too long to list!
http://superstockers.homestead.com/week.html

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jkilroy
Gearhead

Posts: 1289
From: Austin, TX
Registered: Dec 99

posted 11-30-2000 11:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jkilroy   Click Here to Email jkilroy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A really good way to get good rods is to turn your rod journals down to BBC size. In my setup I have 6.8" chevy rods, JE and Ross both make pistons to support this setup. Here are some links for you (Or anyone else)

If you have the bucks (I sure don't) Oliver rods are top quality.
http://www.oliver-rods.com/cgi-local/shop.pl/page=index.html

Crower also makes some great parts
http://www.crower.com/

Manley makes a Pro Series I Beam in the 6.8 length, tough part is they run about a grand a set.
http://www.racenet.net/missing.php3?url=http://www.internetracerssupply.com/eng/man-rods-steel.php3

And no discussion of quality rods would be complete without the grand daddy of them all, Carrillo. But MAN they are expensive, the 6.8 BBC's run about $1700 a set!
http://www.carrilloind.com/story.html
http://www.herbertperformance.com/Catalog/ConnectingRods/Carrillo_rods/carrillo_rods.html

And here is Eagle, truth be told, there 6.8 rod is only two grams heavier, at around $620, than the $1700+ set of Olivers.
http://www.racenet.net/missing.php3?url=http://www.internetracerssupply.com/eng/eag-rods.php3

Lets not forget Lunati, who makes a wide range of rods.
http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLine/Products/IEC/IECCR/IECCR.html

Happy browsing...

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Jay Kilroy
68' Fastback GT 390
"No such thing as a cam thats too big"

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 11493
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 11-30-2000 03:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for all of the links Jay. Eagle only makes one series of rods. They are all clubs.(compared to the others) Crower, Cunningham, Oliver, and Carrilo all make a super premium light weight rod, which are substatially lighter than the Eagle product. My Crower "Ultra Lights" are 75 grams lighter than the 5.155 Eagles. Then again they cost almost three times as much. Also, in case you didn't know, the Eagle rods are made over seas. I got what I paid for. Alex

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Alex Denysenko Co-Administrator and Moderator
Fleet of FoMoCo's too long to list!
http://superstockers.homestead.com/week.html

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jkilroy
Gearhead

Posts: 1289
From: Austin, TX
Registered: Dec 99

posted 11-30-2000 03:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jkilroy   Click Here to Email jkilroy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree. I am sure that the Olivers have much better metalurgy and design. (As well as higher quality rod bolts) But for a stock replacement rod with a little more peace of mind I am sure the Eagle rod will work fine.

Eagle is now producing a second series of rods that are a good bit lighter than the original rods. (Which they still sell) Like I said, the Eagle 6.8 rods, in this new series, are only a couple of grams heavier than the Oliver Parabolics, which is a top of the line rod.

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Jay Kilroy
68' Fastback GT 390
"No such thing as a cam thats too big"

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 11493
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 11-30-2000 03:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Tell ya'll what. They will ALL be at the PRI show and I will get info from ALL of them. I will post the new findings, lies, truths, and other propoganda when I get back. How's that? Alex

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Alex Denysenko Co-Administrator and Moderator
Fleet of FoMoCo's too long to list!
http://superstockers.homestead.com/week.html

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F551
Gearhead

Posts: 124
From: Manitoba, Canada
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 11-30-2000 04:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for F551   Click Here to Email F551     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Our Eagle rods were given to us by a sponsor,
the machinist is a Crower guy and wasn't happy - but what are you going to do when that is what you get. Eagles seem ok for bracket racing, we could push the combo and go faster, but to prove what? For S/SS and Comp sure - you have to have the best.

Our rods are the 6.800 BBC Eagle, with the offset ground cast crank. Use Arias .030" over pistons. A steel stroker crank for a BBF is worth it's weight in gold up here.

Paul - what are you using for heads / induction, those are pretty good times!

And thanks for the welcome Alex.

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TomP
Gearhead

Posts: 3609
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99

posted 12-01-2000 02:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for TomP   Click Here to Email TomP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
yeah Fred, welcome

Sheesh,we must have almost every Ford racer in Canada here now,eh?!

I feel so inferior ,my rods only 6.488" but then again Alex's is only 5.155" LOL

------------------
64 T-Boltish Fairlane 427 HR 4spd 10.05 at 133.7 so far ... arrgh ,so close!!

another 64Fairlane project 428 4spd
53 F350 ramptruck 428 4spd
88 Ranger 5.0 5speed
'bout half of a 67 Mustang FB was a 390 :-(

IP: Logged

Big Block Capri
Gearhead

Posts: 110
From: Essex, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 12-01-2000 01:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Big Block Capri   Click Here to Email Big Block Capri     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Fred. Welcome aboard. We're using DOVE-C heads that have bigger Manley valves in them. I hand ported and gasket matched them last winter. We just run a Stealth intake and a 800 Holley. Oh yeah, TomP, I know a couple of other Ford racers up here but they're not exactly computer literate.

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Paul Garant
"No replacement for displacement."

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 607
From: Stanton, Michigan
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 12-04-2000 12:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Fred!
Glad to hear of another BBF runner!

While we are all patiently hanging around to hear from Alex all the latest 'con rod' info,,,, Let's chat about cranks.

Some of the fine racers on this thread have mentioned that they run a CAST crank off-set ground to gain some stroke. JT mentioned turning down the rod pins to 2.20 (BBC) size.

What are some opinions on what the top of the RPM scale is for, say, a OEM 429/460 (cast) crank turned down to 2.20" - can it live @ 8000 RPMs for a season or two? If not, what is a reasonable rpm ceiling?

When I look at the cost of a custom, forged crank, it starts sounding like the co$t of building an assembly to top at 6.5K is half of what it would co$t to spin it at 7.5-8.0K RPMs. Does anyone have a favorite crank supplier/maker?

I don't see much sense in having killer con rods if my crank can't take it......

Thanks, Ryan

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The '3-Pedal Attitude' Kid
in a '69 FB w/ 306 now, but
the 460+ is coming... :D

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jkilroy
Gearhead

Posts: 1289
From: Austin, TX
Registered: Dec 99

posted 12-04-2000 01:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jkilroy   Click Here to Email jkilroy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Man, what kind of power are you wanting to make at 8000 rpm? Most BB guys are running up into the 6500 - 7000 range and getting 700+ hp without exotic parts.

I think you could pull 7500 with aluminum rods and light pistons. Those factory cranks are tough. My crank is a factory 460 crank turned down to 2.2 and offset gound to 4.140 stroke.

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Jay Kilroy
68' Fastback GT 390
"No such thing as a cam thats too big"

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 11493
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 12-04-2000 04:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I got lot's of "rodspeak" at the show and will share it all with you tomorrow. Hint, the BEST starts with a "C" as far as I'm concerned. Alex

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Alex Denysenko Co-Administrator and Moderator
Fleet of FoMoCo's too long to list!
http://superstockers.homestead.com/week.html

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F551
Gearhead

Posts: 124
From: Manitoba, Canada
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 12-04-2000 11:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for F551   Click Here to Email F551     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi guys!

Great forum, nice to hear about some "relevant topics".

We run our cast crank (offset to 4.140")at 6900 - 7000 rpm. That's our limit - hate breaking parts, both moneywise as well as Chevy guys babbleing!

Agree with Jay the cast piece is tough, cost us $500 Canadian for all crank work. We have the crank magged each season (makes us feel better). I would think a preped steel crank would be at least $2500 up here.

Aluminum rods would be great, we considered them - but how long do they last? Everyone had a different story , where as "steel" is forever.

What kind of dampers are you guys using - we bought a "Rattler", so far - so good.

Pulled the motor yesterday, plan on putting it on Dyno in January (first time), to see what we have - figure out where we are going.

We used port plates (MPG) this year, going to do pulls with/without plates - should be interesting - looked at some of the previous posts on this topic.

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jkilroy
Gearhead

Posts: 1289
From: Austin, TX
Registered: Dec 99

posted 12-04-2000 11:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jkilroy   Click Here to Email jkilroy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't know if anyone here has heard of Rock & Roll Engineering but they are a Pontiac shop. No, I do not own one, but a pal does and he turned me on to their web site.
www.pontiacpower.com

The site is good no matter what you drive, these guys just flat no their ****! Anyway, he has a good piece on Aluminum rods, talks about when to use them and when not, how to take care of them and what to look out for. Like don't start your engine when it is cold, like less than 45 degrees, always let your motor warm fully before hammering it, and so on. He has a customer with over 500 runs on the same set of aluminum rods.

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Jay Kilroy
68' Fastback GT 390
"No such thing as a cam thats too big"

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 607
From: Stanton, Michigan
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 12-05-2000 09:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jay,
I checked out some of those 'con rod' sites you posted a few days ago on this thread as well as the 'PontiacPower.com' site. All good stuff to expand my learning curve!! Thanks a bunch

The reason I asked about what it would take to run a BBF @ 8K rpms, was based on what 'Kid Vishus' had suggested to me in a Nov thread (Rod Ratio vs. Cubic Inches); "...to get your car to hook on that smaller (10") tire maybe a hi-rpm motor leaving at a lower rpm might be the way to go. Say a motor with a 7600 shift point but leave at 3500 or just low enuff not to bog the motor. A 429 with a big cam, big heads, longer than stock rods and a big carb? Just an idea."

So I was thinking - if a guy was to have a shift point of 7600, then he should build the motor to max at a bit over that, say, 8000 rpms... and so I was wondering what would be required to build an engine to that level. But from the sounds if it, it's way too costly for me & my budget!

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The '3-Pedal Attitude' Kid
in a '69 FB w/ 306 now, but
the 460+ is coming...

[This message has been edited by Ryan Wilke (edited 12-06-2000).]

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 11493
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 12-06-2000 04:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Most of the FoMoCo racers in NHRA/IHRA class racing like the Inovators West or BHJ balancers. I have them both and like them both. The IW seems to hld up better cosmeticly. I am working on the Con-Rod showdown. I am reading and absorbing all of the written material that I obtained and combining it with all of the spoken propaganda that I was told at the PRI show. Alex

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Alex Denysenko Co-Administrator and Moderator
Fleet of FoMoCo's too long to list!
http://superstockers.homestead.com/week.html

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