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Author
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Topic: Is there a need for torque boxes?
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hgufrin
Journeyman Posts: 78
From: Peoria, IL
Registered: Feb 2004
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posted 06-19-2006 02:07 PM
 
On my 66 Mustang...Is there a need for torque boxes or will subframe connectors be sufficient? The engine will have about 400hp.Just like to know so that I can purchase and put in before I paint.
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Fastback68
Gearhead Posts: 4511
From: Sucat, Paranaque, Philippines
Registered: Jul 99
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posted 06-19-2006 10:55 PM
Do '66s have NO torque boxes? Or is it one, like the 67?
For an authoritative answer, I'd head on over to the racing forum. But my understanding is that the functions of torque boxes and subframe connectors are not exactly the same. If you're planning on putting those 400 horses to good use at the drag strip, I'd think torque boxes would be a must, with subframe connectors optional. For street racing, I'd go with both, since the subframe connectors are more about stopping flex in the corners.
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Darryl Eichenlaub
Gearhead Posts: 124
From: Buckley,Wa.
Registered: Dec 2005
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posted 06-20-2006 01:36 AM
Unless you going with a complete tube chassis,like from Art Morrision, you'll will need to keep the torque boxes. Sub frame connectors are not designed to replace the boxes. The torque boxes, the rocker panels, the floor, and the roof all make up the structural frame for these cars, you can't remove any one of these componants without biulding up other ones. Most sub frame connectors are not designed to be use as a stand alone piece. They are designed to add structural strength between the front sub frame and the rear sub frame. All the ones I've seen tie into the boxes.
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Darryl Eichenlaub
1965 Mustang Coupe restomod 289,c4,body and interior mods.
1956 F-100 460,c6,9" major body mods, on going project.
1967 Mustang Fastback, father/son project 5.0,5spd,9".
1975 F250 4x4 Highboy 390,4spd,35",custom paint.
2002 Mustang v6,5spd, daughters college ride.
2001 Ford Escape, Wifes grocery getter.
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Stang28965
Gearhead Posts: 551
From: Webster New York USA
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 06-20-2006 01:39 AM
Guys, He is asking if he should install them, They do not come stock on a 65-66 Coupe.I would say go ahead and install some, I am not pushing near 400 horse but I do plan on installing some on mine. [This message has been edited by Stang28965 (edited 06-20-2006).]
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68mustang351w
Gearhead Posts: 558
From: San Jose, Ca
Registered: Sep 2004
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posted 06-20-2006 03:25 AM
As mentioned, install them. You pretty much want the chassis as stiff as possible. You want the components that are designed to move, to move rather than having the chassis flex.. David F.
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BryanM
Journeyman Posts: 78
From: Friendswood, TX
Registered: Dec 2005
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posted 06-20-2006 08:18 AM
What's a torque box?  ------------------
Bryan - 1965 coupe / front bench seat / 289 / T5.
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Fastback68
Gearhead Posts: 4511
From: Sucat, Paranaque, Philippines
Registered: Jul 99
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posted 06-20-2006 08:25 AM
Something really important that Ford apparently decided to leave off your car Bryan  You can and should correct this. I think NPD has the parts.
There should be two - right and left - and they connect the inside foot or so of the front frame rails to the body to stop things twisting under hard acceleration.[This message has been edited by Fastback68 (edited 06-20-2006).]
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hgufrin
Journeyman Posts: 78
From: Peoria, IL
Registered: Feb 2004
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posted 06-20-2006 09:32 AM
Looks like i'll install. The $100 is not worth the guess work.Bryan M, At NPD they are $46.95 or so for the left side and $44.95 for the right side. They need to be welded in. Dodgestang.com has some good pictures of his completed job.
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Darryl Eichenlaub
Gearhead Posts: 124
From: Buckley,Wa.
Registered: Dec 2005
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posted 06-20-2006 10:44 AM
This is what I know about torque boxes,a torque box is a part in the frame (both full frames and unibodies) that if involved in a crash will absorb part of the collision. Think of it like a "Z" in the frame, if the top is hit head on it will lay down and not bend the bottom. That's how the torque box was designed, with old ladder type frames even mild hits would bend the whole frame causeing a frame replacement. They designed these "Z" into the frames so they would absorb some of the hit and then they could be repaired.
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blackford
Journeyman Posts: 76
From: Corona, Ca
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted 06-20-2006 07:43 PM
They improve handling too. restoremustangs.com also sell them for a '65-'66------------------
Tracy Blackford
'65 "Black" ford FB, 331 with H beam 289 rods, KB322s, fully prepped 351w heads, 282S cam, T5z, 3.50 9" posi. Many Suspension and handling mods. 4.5 year restomod project completed in June '04. 335 SAE RWHP @ 6400.
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Fastback68
Gearhead Posts: 4511
From: Sucat, Paranaque, Philippines
Registered: Jul 99
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posted 06-20-2006 08:13 PM
Darryl, though that may be a benefit of torque boxes, do you think that's the reason Ford started putting them in Mustangs? The explanation that it was to absorb body-twisting force under rapid acceleration has always had me convinced since in '67 just one box was added - on the right - since it was the right rear wheel through which power was being transferred to the road. It would also explain why they were called torque boxes.
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BornInAFord
Gearhead Posts: 610
From: Bend, OR, USA
Registered: Dec 2002
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posted 06-20-2006 08:22 PM
I think both are a good idea as each will add to the chassis stiffness. Subframe connectors add a direct tubular connection between the rear and front inner subframes. Torque boxes connect the inner frame rails with the outer rails (rocker panels) with a fairly heavy gauge piece that makes a triangle with the front floor-boards. This triangle is much stiffer than just the single sheet of metal the floorboard have. 65 and later 'verts had them on both sides, 67 coupes and fastbacks had them on passenger's side only, and 68 and on (IIRC) had them on both driver's and passenger's sides.If you add them, be sure to get the 67-68 non-convertible ones as the 65-66 ones are designed for the verts and won't fit your 65-66 coupe or fastback as well because they are designed to fit around all the extra bracing the convertible had down there. Just want to save you (or your bodyman) a lot of extra fabbing...
Daniel [This message has been edited by BornInAFord (edited 06-20-2006).]
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Darryl Eichenlaub
Gearhead Posts: 124
From: Buckley,Wa.
Registered: Dec 2005
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posted 06-20-2006 09:48 PM
I guess I should clarify, when I was talking about "Torque Boxes" I was talking about the structrural design of the frame. I now see that companies are offering replacement parts called torque boxes. Just like Dan said anything that stiffens the chassis is a plus.
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Scott H
Gearhead Posts: 1480
From: Chicago area
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 06-20-2006 10:18 PM
You're not thinking Torque Box Darryl, you're thinking 'crumple zone'.Torque box is to avoid turning and twisting affects on the unibody.
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Darryl Eichenlaub
Gearhead Posts: 124
From: Buckley,Wa.
Registered: Dec 2005
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posted 06-21-2006 12:04 AM
Yes Scott, I'm refering to a I-Car Collision repair book. The definions they give:
Crush Zones are built into the frames or body to collapse and absorb some of the energy of a collision. The front and rear of the vehicle collapses while the passenger compartment tends to retains its shape.
Torque Boxes are the structural parts of the frame designed to allow some twisting to absorb road shock and collision impact. They both do the same thing but fenders and hoods are designed with crush zones.
[This message has been edited by Darryl Eichenlaub (edited 06-21-2006).] [This message has been edited by Darryl Eichenlaub (edited 06-21-2006).]
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68mustang351w
Gearhead Posts: 558
From: San Jose, Ca
Registered: Sep 2004
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posted 06-21-2006 01:18 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Darryl Eichenlaub:
They both do the same thing but fenders and hoods are designed with crush zones.
On newer cars maybe but you have to remember these cars were designed and built in the 60's. In the early cars the streering shaft was literally a spear. In 68 they barely came out with shoulder restraints. From what Ive heard the motor mounts wouldnt stand much of a collision (73 and later were suppose to be a lot stronger) and Ive also heard the hood had a tendency of not folding on impact and instead shearing at the hinges and going through the windshield. We all know about the gas tanks. But back on topic, the torque boxes are a structural member. They help tie the LCA to the rest of the unibody while making it stiffer. Take a look here. Just read the very first post... David F.
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Fastback68
Gearhead Posts: 4511
From: Sucat, Paranaque, Philippines
Registered: Jul 99
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posted 06-21-2006 02:29 AM
That's a fascinating read. Thanks for the link!
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my65
Journeyman Posts: 99
From: Dearborn
Registered: May 2004
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posted 06-21-2006 03:46 PM
Global west makes a piece that ties the rocker panels to their subframe connectors. Does this take the place of torque boxes?
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mellowyellow
Gearhead Posts: 8198
From: So. Fl.
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 06-21-2006 06:47 PM
Ford put them in when they started using a big block By 68 there were two from factory ALL body styles. They're not all that hard to put in if there isn't a rotted one to remove. Ford did not get bean counter sanction to have them if there was'nt a good reason.
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66drop
Gearhead Posts: 192
From: Roseville Ca
Registered: Jul 2004
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posted 06-22-2006 09:39 AM
Hgufrin, if you need them i've got a perfect set that i purchased brand new for a restore, but fortunately sold the car. ------------------
'66 Vert, 289, Edelbrock 1403, 3speed, w/procars.
A removable 14in grant steering wheel.
Granada disk break swap.
15x7&15x8 steel styles w/225-60-15's.
Front & rear sways.
5-leaf rear leaf sprrings and magnaflows.
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hgufrin
Journeyman Posts: 78
From: Peoria, IL
Registered: Feb 2004
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posted 06-22-2006 09:46 AM
66 drop...if you had a 66 coupe, can you email me? [email protected]?
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