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Author
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Topic: Engine Clattering
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honeyburst
Gearhead Posts: 300
From: Nashville, TN, USA
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 05-09-2006 11:47 PM
   
Okay....most of you have seen my posts regarding Trixie....my new 65 289 4spd coupe....
When I picked the car up, the owner said it "clatters a little and the rockers need to be adjusted".....okay....drove it home (and drove it today too) this evening, I pulled the valve covers, loosened each rocker until it started clacking, then tightened until it stopped, then an additional 1/2 turn (per an archived post)...(then left the garage until the haze cleared)....it still clatters....it is NOT a rocker sound....it is NOT an exhaust sound....you can only hear it at idle...it seems to go away around 1500 rpm.....oil is full, oil pressure is good.......
MY thought is that the pistons are slapping.....but I don't know how to check to see what it might be.......
Thoughts ???------------------
Without life there could be no music, but without music, there can be no life.
1973 Convertible, 1965 A Code 4spd coupe, Past: 1969 GT, 1967 6cyl coupe, 1968 coupe
Two Rivers Ford, Parts Dept., Nashville, TN
www.geocities.com/jezebeldream
www.geocities.com/my73conv
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Mark Ugrich
Gearhead Posts: 238
From: Waukesha, Wisconsin,U.S.A.
Registered: Jan 2006
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posted 05-09-2006 11:56 PM
Just a guess, Fuel pump.
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jww_289
Journeyman Posts: 54
From: Victoria Australia
Registered: Feb 2006
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posted 05-10-2006 01:27 AM
Just a couple of thoughts;
* could be a loose spark plug (guess how I know  )
* while it is running pull each plug lead off, notice if the noise goes or changes, if it is piston slap in that cylinder then you should notice.
* use a mechanics stethoscope (big screw driver) to try and localize the noise.HTH,
John...... ------------------
1966 fastback
- 4v 289
- T10 4 speed
- Pony interior
JWW_289 Home Page [This message has been edited by jww_289 (edited 05-10-2006).]
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Aussie XAXB
Journeyman Posts: 52
From: North Olmsted, Ohio
Registered: Jan 2006
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posted 05-10-2006 09:43 PM
Those are some good suggestions.A couple more, it could be one or more wore out lifters, assuming from how you adjusted them that they are in fact hydraulic. With the engine off and cold see if you can depress the lifters with the pushrod at all. Note which ones you can. Run the engine for a couple minutes and check again. If you can depress any then it is most likely bad. It should be pumped up and too hard to compress with your hand. You could also haave a weak valve spring and the piston might be slapping the valve a little if it isn't closing fast enough. It can be a myriad of things. Start with the easier ones to check and just eliminate them from there.
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honeyburst
Gearhead Posts: 300
From: Nashville, TN, USA
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 05-10-2006 11:12 PM
okay....just pulled each plug wire off individually....good fire to each wire.....no change in clatter....I can then assume it's not a broken rod, correct ???????
.....used a piece of tubing and listened around....couldn't pin-point the sound.....turned my rpms down to about 450-500....it ALMOST went away, but when you rev the engine, it comes back......I like the lifter idea...but that will have to wait until tomorrow night....
any other suggestions ???....I'm trying to decide if I want to "freshen" the engine (it runs REALLY strong)(by freshen, I mean cam, intake, lifters, springs, carb and t-chain kit) or do a complete rebuild....
sitting by the 'puter waiting *smile*------------------
Without life there could be no music, but without music, there can be no life.
1973 Convertible, 1965 A Code 4spd coupe, Past: 1969 GT, 1967 6cyl coupe, 1968 coupe
Two Rivers Ford, Parts Dept., Nashville, TN
www.geocities.com/jezebeldream
www.geocities.com/my73conv
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Mark Ugrich
Gearhead Posts: 238
From: Waukesha, Wisconsin,U.S.A.
Registered: Jan 2006
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posted 05-10-2006 11:54 PM
I still think it's the fuel pump.From the description of the noise I think the spring on the pump arm is broken or (if it has one)the wear plate on the arm may be loose or missing. 
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Jimmy Ray
Gearhead Posts: 196
From: Virginia Beach Va.
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 05-11-2006 12:20 AM
Does it get louder when you rasie the Rpm while holding load on the engine? Like power brake and see if it gets real load.... if it does it's a rod knocking...If it is valve train you may have to continue adjusting the rockers, I have never been very good at getting them right the first time... in fact it takes me a couple of times.... I run the engine until it's warm pull the valve covers rotate the engine by hand, following the firing order and adjust both the intake and exhaust on top dead center and do this about 4 times... put the covers on run it again and if the noise is still there I do it all over again. I know that it should be right the first time... But I was surprised how much lash came back..... I would also check the fuel pump also.... Hey was this car a K code like you thought?
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honeyburst
Gearhead Posts: 300
From: Nashville, TN, USA
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 05-11-2006 12:39 AM
nope...was an "A" code.....now named Trixie....okay....can't be a rod....as mentioned...pulled the wires one at a time...clattering remained.....
I did put the pipe on the fuel pump.....didn't sound like it was coming from there.....it's definately not the rockers.....all that leaves is piston slap, lifters and (I'll pull it tomorrow) the fuel pump...but if the fuel pump was faulty, it wouldn't have good pressure would it ???
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Mark Ugrich
Gearhead Posts: 238
From: Waukesha, Wisconsin,U.S.A.
Registered: Jan 2006
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posted 05-11-2006 01:00 AM
quote:
Originally posted by honeyburst:
nope...was an "A" code.....now named Trixie....okay....can't be a rod....as mentioned...pulled the wires one at a time...clattering remained.....
I did put the pipe on the fuel pump.....didn't sound like it was coming from there.....it's definately not the rockers.....all that leaves is piston slap, lifters and (I'll pull it tomorrow) the fuel pump...but if the fuel pump was faulty, it wouldn't have good pressure would it ???
The pump could still have pressure and work o.k., but also noisy at the same time.A worn piston will usually make noise cold, then get quieter as the engine warms and the pistons expand.
The only other thought I have would be a worn timing chain hitting the inside of the front cover. could happen but kind of unlikely unless the chain is severely stretched.You can check it once the fuel pump is out.Good Luck!
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John Z
Gearhead Posts: 494
From: Morgantown, WV
Registered: Jul 99
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posted 05-11-2006 07:43 AM
Not sure if this applies but my brother's vet had noisy "lifters" until we tightened his exhaust manifold bolts. I'm guessing here.
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sprcoop
Gearhead Posts: 736
From: Tucson, AZ usa
Registered: Jan 2000
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posted 05-11-2006 11:34 PM
Johnz, you may have something there. I'm thinking an exhaust leak could sound a lot like a mis adjusted lifter. I have a little tick that I'm trying chase down also. I've gone over the lifters 3 times since that's easy but no luck.
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honeyburst
Gearhead Posts: 300
From: Nashville, TN, USA
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 05-12-2006 01:06 AM
okay....thought it might be the water pump...pulled off the belt...clatter still there....this really isn't a "tick"(like when you're low on oil)...not a knock....not a "clack"(like when a rocker is mis-adjusted) ....it's a clatter...almost a rattle....it increases speed with the rpm, and seems to go away around 1500-2000 rpm...unless it's just blending with engine noise......and the more I listen to it...it sounds like it's coming from the bottom end, towards the front....I put my pipe (with the valve covers off and the engine running) between the rocker and the front of the head...it seemed to be louder there....but I really can't tell (too many years playing rock and roll guitar  )...SO because it's happening all the time...regardless of a cylinder being disconnected (which means it's not a piston, lifter, rocker, rod or valve...RIGHT ???)....that means it has to be something that's constantly moving...the water pump has been ruled out...and with the pipe on the fuel pump, I just hear a slight tick, which should be normal....what else is left...the friggin' CRANK ???
HELP !!!
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Harley
Gearhead Posts: 163
From:
Registered: Jul 99
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posted 05-12-2006 01:06 AM
Fuel pump solved a similar problem for me. I'd just had the engine rebuilt and was sick to hear that sound, thinking it was something really, really serious.
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honeyburst
Gearhead Posts: 300
From: Nashville, TN, USA
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 05-12-2006 01:16 AM
oh...three other things.....
1. When I went to pull off the rocker...I took off the nut and the rocker wouldn't come off....so I haven't tried to "press down on the lifters"....don't know why it wouldn't come off....the little "half ball" or bearing...or whatever you call it was keeping it down...2. I've got a new fuel pump sitting on the shelf, but it's for a 1973 302......are they the same for a '65 289 ??? 3. The sound does NOT get louder w/ an increase in RPM...just more rapid. [This message has been edited by honeyburst (edited 05-12-2006).]
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honeyburst
Gearhead Posts: 300
From: Nashville, TN, USA
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 05-12-2006 01:20 AM
QUOTE: Does it get louder when you rasie the Rpm while holding load on the engine? Like power brake and see if it gets real load.... if it does it's a rod knocking...how can you power-brake a stick shift ???
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Mark Ugrich
Gearhead Posts: 238
From: Waukesha, Wisconsin,U.S.A.
Registered: Jan 2006
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posted 05-12-2006 01:35 AM
quote:
Originally posted by honeyburst:
QUOTE: Does it get louder when you rasie the Rpm while holding load on the engine? Like power brake and see if it gets real load.... if it does it's a rod knocking...how can you power-brake a stick shift ???
If you can trust Auto Zone  the pumps should interchange.To power-brake a stick shift car...put a really big rock in front of the front tires.(ramps won't work, don't ask how I know)
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irish
Journeyman Posts: 3
From:
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 05-12-2006 03:26 AM
I came across this problem once that turned out to be the fuel pump loosening off. The pump is aluminium bolted to a cast iron block so the have differing expansion rates. A bit of thread sealant and tightening the bolts might be the go.
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capri man
Gearhead Posts: 8120
From: doerun, ga.
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 05-12-2006 06:41 AM
did you ever check for an exhaust leak/ they can really fool you.------------------
mike r
racing is real
everything else is just a game.
81 capri-302-7.25 @93mph 1/8
1.54 60ft 50 % of the fun dragracing is meeting people who will give you the shirt off their back to wipe the grease off your hands.
M&M member #839 http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/mike470/adel2.jpg
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honeyburst
Gearhead Posts: 300
From: Nashville, TN, USA
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 05-12-2006 10:55 AM
okay....sometime this weekend, I'll replace the fuel pump......really don't think it's an exhaust leak....sounds too "metal on metal"...not "chuggy"
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Jimmy Ray
Gearhead Posts: 196
From: Virginia Beach Va.
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 05-12-2006 12:12 PM
Hey Ford Racing has a new 351 crate motor for $2600.00... Maybe time to up grade???Just kidding.. To put load on the engine with the stick shift to see if the rod is what is knocking. you have to try and let the clutch out while holding the brake and gas, use chocks for safety and to assit you.. it won't take much load to hear the Knock to get loader... You'll know ... Check the fuel pump mounting hard ware I had 351 in my old F150 that made my head hurt from ticking sound... It was the fuel pump loose on the timing cover.... I figured it out when the oil started leaking.... I was just like you checking every thing The sound was comeing front the font of the engine, I thought it was valve train then exhaust leak and finally figured out the fuel pump was loose... Good luck
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honeyburst
Gearhead Posts: 300
From: Nashville, TN, USA
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 05-12-2006 03:00 PM
I think I ruled out the rods...but nobody's said, "yes, I agree you've ruled those out"
by pulling the individual plug wires, and the noise continues...that rules out a rod, correct ???
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senzstang
Gearhead Posts: 407
From: perry, oh, usa
Registered: May 2002
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posted 05-12-2006 03:37 PM
quote:
Originally posted by honeyburst:
I think I ruled out the rods...but nobody's said, "yes, I agree you've ruled those out"
by pulling the individual plug wires, and the noise continues...that rules out a rod, correct ???
I have always been told that is the way to check so I would think you are OK there. Trying not to beat a dead horse but I once chased a pinging noise for 2 days only do discover it was a header gasket leak. I would have bet you a million dollars it was a lifter. It did NOT sound like an exhuast leak. The last option is just drive it until whatever is making the noise breaks. Then you will find it real easy 
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69 Sportsroof
Gearhead Posts: 2518
From: Valley, Alabama, USA
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 05-12-2006 03:44 PM
Change the oil and use 20W50 and see what happens. I aint kidding.
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Hans olsson
Gearhead Posts: 844
From: Sweden
Registered: Apr 2000
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posted 05-12-2006 04:05 PM
What happens with the noise if you depress the clutch pedal?------------------
- VIN 1F05M139343
- 71 Mach 1 Ram-Air
- 351C 4V 285 HP
- E-F-G/SA
- Stockers are way cool!
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honeyburst
Gearhead Posts: 300
From: Nashville, TN, USA
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 05-12-2006 04:35 PM
no change at all when depressing the clutch....  this is SO ticking me off !!!!!
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jww_289
Journeyman Posts: 54
From: Victoria Australia
Registered: Feb 2006
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posted 05-12-2006 07:51 PM
Don't forget to check the timing chain like Mark said when you have the fuel pump off ....
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Mark Ugrich
Gearhead Posts: 238
From: Waukesha, Wisconsin,U.S.A.
Registered: Jan 2006
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posted 05-12-2006 11:15 PM
quote:
Originally posted by honeyburst:
I think I ruled out the rods...but nobody's said, "yes, I agree you've ruled those out"
by pulling the individual plug wires, and the noise continues...that rules out a rod, correct ???
Yes, I agree you've ruled those out. There, I said it.
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 46878
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99
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posted 05-13-2006 08:17 PM
It's not the crank, crank sound is a very deep thudding and you feel it more than hear it.It's probably not a connecting rod bearing but to check just goose it a little to 2000 or so and let it slow to idle and if you had a rod knock you'd really hear it as the rod tries to catch back up with the throws. A wrist pin is possible, but they usually go away when you disconnect a spark plug wire. {but not always} A broken piston skirt is a possibility. They are really noisy when the engine is cold and you don't say it's louder when cold. A floppy old fuel pump is a real good possibility. A loose timing chain can be noisy, check the timing mark to see if it wanders much as the car idles. An exhaust leak is most likely what it is, but they can be tough to find sometimes. I've found them while crawling underneath an idling car but I won't suggest that for safety reasons. Water pumps make that sound sometime, but you ruled that out. ------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '70 Mustang Convertible - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150 XL
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MASTIFF
Gearhead Posts: 107
From: maumee, Ohio 43537
Registered: May 2001
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posted 05-14-2006 09:08 AM
I know many have said this, but this is what I would check if you have not yet:1. Exhuast leak -- I had an exhaust manifold leaking once that sounded just like a metal tapping.....I thouhgt it was a lifter. 2. Spark everywhere. Make sure it is not arcing anywehre. It would sound sound like a ticking. 2. Fuel Pump 3. A bad Lifter
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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead Posts: 2780
From: Stanton, Michigan, zip 48888
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 05-14-2006 12:18 PM
quote:
Originally posted by SteveLaRiviere:
A floppy old fuel pump is a real good possibility. A loose timing chain can be noisy, check the timing mark to see if it wanders much as the car idles. An exhaust leak is most likely what it is, but they can be tough to find sometimes. I've found them while crawling underneath an idling car but I won't suggest that for safety reasons.
My bet is that it is one of the three items mentioned above by Steve LaR.....  Ryan
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kcode
Gearhead Posts: 3325
From: alvaton,ky,usa Suburb of Bowling Green, M&M #79, MCA #29208
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 05-14-2006 09:40 PM
If the sound is coming from the front cover area, my vote goes to the fuel pump and or the fuel pump eccentric. A loose or worn spring on the accuator arm will allow the arm to not keep pressure on the eccentric and slap on every revolution.
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GTRocks
Gearhead Posts: 4553
From: Lusby, MD
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 05-14-2006 11:41 PM
We used to check for exhaust leaks by pulling the car into a grassy field. You could lean under the car at idle and see the grass flexing from the air. Gave you an idea of where to look. Of course if it's the manifold, odds are that method won't help.
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Jake11
Gearhead Posts: 229
From: Banning,Ca,USA
Registered: Oct 2005
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posted 05-15-2006 04:32 PM
You need to pinpoint where it's coming
from. A mechanic's stethascope is nice, but
a length of hose will work ok. Hold one end
to your ear and try find the noise with the
other end. This is better than changing
parts to find it. Good luck, KP
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honeyburst
Gearhead Posts: 300
From: Nashville, TN, USA
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 05-16-2006 03:25 PM
just a note....going to replace the fuel pump tonight, along with the front wheel bearings and seals....noticed this morning that it didn't start clattering immediately....it waited until the car was semi-warm ???
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Butchrush
Journeyman Posts: 16
From: Ft Walton Bch, FL
Registered: Jul 2004
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posted 05-16-2006 11:47 PM
I have the same problem in my 66 289 2V automatic...I cant find out where it is comming from either..Have changed the fuel pump, timming chain, adjusted the valves, changed the water pump, ran the engine with the belts disconnected,changed the oil and added STP, listened with a mechanics stephascope still there, It doesn't mater if it is in gear or not, finally decided to run the HECK out of it and see what happens.,,.Drove 125 miles at 80 MPH on the interstate then drove back it run like a top, and got 17 MPG but the noise is still there at idle.If You find out what yours is please let me know. I'm just driving the heck out of it, seems to go away a high RPM on the highway ------------------
Butch
BR2402
www.mustang.rushings.net "If you can read this, Thank a teacher"
If you read this in English, Thank a Veteran"
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honeyburst
Gearhead Posts: 300
From: Nashville, TN, USA
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 05-16-2006 11:59 PM
Butch.....
I'm about at the same point....runs like a top, just has that noise....I don't think it actually "goes away" at higher speeds, I think it just blends in with the engine/exhaust sounds....
I'll find it sooner or later....was going to change the fuel pump tonight, but had to work on my driver ('73 conv.)....had to get it running so I could pull it OUT of the garage to get the '65 IN the garage
Hopefully I'll know more tomrrow !
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mustangs68
Moderator Posts: 26071
From: Buckroe Beach Va MCA#39406 M&M #12 Member Mustang Club of Tidewater
Registered: May 99
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posted 05-17-2006 04:47 PM
Hb I got it..
Since you have checked everything you can think of lets do some logic.Remove the Grill and front Fenders..see if the noise is still there,if so,remove the hood and doors,still there,Seats and Dash,still there,trunk lid.... You seemed to be down a bit over this noise.,,just trying to put a smile on your face
Odds are Fuel Pump or exhaust leak where the manifold exhaust bolts up to the Pipes
Sam
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honeyburst
Gearhead Posts: 300
From: Nashville, TN, USA
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 05-17-2006 06:50 PM
*ROFLMAO*....I needed that...thanks....
I was pulling into the dealership today coming back from lunch and one of the service advisors yelled across the lot, "Hey Bryan...you dropped your fender !"
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