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Author
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Topic: Opinions on motor problem
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traumastang
Journeyman Posts: 52
From: Palmyra, MO, United States
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 11-24-2005 08:57 AM
   
Hi again all,I got my 351C 4v rebuilt and back into my mustang. Spun the oil pump to get some oil circulating a bit then started it up. Everyone of my lifters knocked at startup, so let it run a few seconds at 2000 RPM, still rattling. I let it run no more than 1 minute, but the lifters never did quiet down so I shut it off. I then trailored it back to the machine shop. After they looked at it they said there was gas in the oil. They think the fuel pump diaphram is leaking fuel into the motor and that is thinning out the oil so much that the lifters will not pump up. They are going to check the motor to make sure nothing was hurt but I wanted to know if this sounds like a legitimate explanation for my motor's symptoms or do I need to watch my machinist closer or take it somewhere else? I only ask because the machinist's apprentice made a statement on the phone to me saying, "you can come look at it before we break it open to se if we are lying". This was right after he told me what they thought the problem was, before I had even said anything hehe. Just got me wondering is all. Scott
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mustangboy
Gearhead Posts: 1198
From: Ont, Canada
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 11-24-2005 10:39 AM
No something is not right.Even if the fuel pump was the problem there is no way it would immediately dilute the oil that quickly...Did you pull the dipstick and see if the oil level had risen or if it was very watery and smelled like gas??To me it sounds like the rockers are not adjusted properly.This is the same sort of problem you were having before isn't it??I would go to another shop as it seems these guys cannot correct the problem.You will have to fight with them about the money though  ------------------
68 J-Code,Sprint,306 4 speed,4.11s 13.69@101...............
66 coupe 289 4 speed, 3.20 cruiser http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/MembersPics/mustangboy.html http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/MembersPics/mustangboy2.html
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 28191
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 11-24-2005 11:18 AM
It's possible but highly unlikely.
There would have to be at least a gallon of gas in the crank case to dilute the oil that much.------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,'04 &'05
First NHRA & IHRA 289 automatic Superstock Mustang in the TENS 06-99
First SS/MA in the TENS 04-03
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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traumastang
Journeyman Posts: 52
From: Palmyra, MO, United States
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 11-24-2005 11:20 AM
Thanks for the speedy response and Happy Thanksgiving btw.The machinist shop told me that when they checked the gas on the dipstick it read almost 3-4 quarts over what it should be. They also said it smelled like gas in the oil and the oil was really thin. They said the oil did not look dirty so they are thinking nothing "bad" happened to the internals since it was run so short (less than a minute). The shop that put the motor in and started it told me that to them it sounded like the motor was not getting any oil pressure. That is why I had the car trailored to the machine shop so they could figure it out before I let the garage "mess with it". The machinist himself said some of the older Fords had this problem and all it should take to fix is a new fuel pump and then changing the oil. It was just the comment the apprentice made had me worried that they might have found else and didn't want me to think they was trying to "screw me". I was just wondering if the fuel pump diaphram leaking would cause this problem or if it sounded out of left field. Thanks again, Scott
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traumastang
Journeyman Posts: 52
From: Palmyra, MO, United States
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 11-24-2005 08:51 PM
So where is could the gas be coming from to get into the motor? Just so I have some information before I go by the shop Monday.Thanks again, Scott
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mustangboy
Gearhead Posts: 1198
From: Ont, Canada
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 11-25-2005 12:02 AM
Well normally the pump has an internal leak and just leaks gas into the timing chain cover area.....The problem I have with this story is if the oil pump was primed "before" the engine was started the lifters should have been pretty much full of oil so there should have been no clatter for a little while until the engine ran and the oil got diluted.It's very hard to believe that the pump could pump that much gas into the engine in only 1 minute of running time....Did the motor ever build oil pressure?..They say the first few minutes of an engines life are the most important in determining how it will last.Basically your telling us it either had no oil pressure or else the oil was half gas which isn't a great lubricant..I'd be a little concerned  ------------------
68 J-Code,Sprint,306 4 speed,4.11s 13.69@101...............
66 coupe 289 4 speed, 3.20 cruiser http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/MembersPics/mustangboy.html http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/MembersPics/mustangboy2.html
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Jake11
Gearhead Posts: 207
From: Banning,Ca,USA
Registered: Oct 2005
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posted 11-25-2005 01:27 AM
That's an awful lot of gas to get in the
sump in 1 min. Kinda hard to buy that story.
Sounds more like short pushrods.
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Whitson
Gearhead Posts: 195
From: Western Canada
Registered: Dec 2005
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posted 12-02-2005 10:58 AM
I've seen it take up to 20 minutes for new, empty lifters to fill up and quiet down.
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mustangboy
Gearhead Posts: 1198
From: Ont, Canada
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 12-02-2005 01:38 PM
When I install new lifters I stick the nozzle of my oil can into the hole in the side of the lifter and pump oil in until it comes out the hole in the top.Once I get the engine assembled I preoil the engine with an old distributor shaft (with the gear removed)and a drill until lots of oil has come out the pushrods and ran down all over the rocker and top of the valvespring..Sometimes it does take a while but I keep driving the pump until all 16 rockers are covered in oil.Then when I fire the engine everything is quiet.  ------------------
68 J-Code,Sprint,306 4 speed,4.11s 13.69@101...............
66 coupe 289 4 speed, 3.20 cruiser http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/MembersPics/mustangboy.html http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/MembersPics/mustangboy2.html [This message has been edited by mustangboy (edited 12-02-2005).]
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DidgeyTrucker
Gearhead Posts: 1681
From: Greenbrier, TN USA
Registered: Oct 99
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posted 12-02-2005 01:54 PM
A flooding carburetor can also dump quite a bit of gas which can end up in the oil. Don't ask me how I know that.Tracy
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74merc
Gearhead Posts: 1317
From: Demopolis AL
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 12-09-2005 04:27 PM
Sounds kinda funny, but the apprentice saying "if we are lying", I wouldn't put too much weight on. Probably just a dumb kid, I remember thinking stuff like that and I'm sure I said some dumb stuff back then too. Unless the apprentice is like 40, then I'd worry...Still, lifters should have pumped up. Like Alex said, it takes a lot of gas to thin down oil, and given that fast, I don't think it would mix in well enough to keep the lifters ticking. The entire thing is kinda off.
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Jake11
Gearhead Posts: 207
From: Banning,Ca,USA
Registered: Oct 2005
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posted 12-09-2005 08:59 PM
What it sounds like to me is somebody forgot to tighten the rocker nuts when it
was assembled.
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traumastang
Journeyman Posts: 52
From: Palmyra, MO, United States
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 12-10-2005 04:10 AM
Well,Went to my machinist the other day and he had her purring pretty nicely. Seems the mechanic shop that I had taken it too somehow forgot to put the oil pump shaft in. The machinist said they either took it out (because they had one in and spun it to prime the motor with oil)or it has fallen down into the oil pan. He also said if he was me, he would shoot those guys because I was lucky it didn't mess the motor up without any oil going through it. There was also several manifold leaks and he said the carb is messed up, which he thinks is due to maybe too much backfiring up through it when they was trying to get it started. Needless to say I have not paid the last $500 for their work. Instead its going to my machinist who is going to make it right (they way he would do it on his own car). But man even with a messed up carb and exhaust leaks, it sure sounded suhweet. Scott
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DidgeyTrucker
Gearhead Posts: 1681
From: Greenbrier, TN USA
Registered: Oct 99
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posted 12-10-2005 10:27 AM
Yep, no oil pump shaft would cause that............Who was the last one to be anywhere near the shaft? Tracy
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mustangboy
Gearhead Posts: 1198
From: Ont, Canada
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 12-11-2005 09:40 AM
I would get your new machinest to check your engine over very carefully.It sounds like the other shop was totally incompetent.It also sounds to me like they were making up the gas in the oil story to cover up their mistakes so they are also dishonest to say the least!Sounds like you had a good reason to be suspicious of the guys comments about him proving he wasn't lying...I don't know how you could forget the oil pump shaft since it has to go in before the oil pump is bolted on and you have to adjust the little collar on the shaft to the proper hieght or its hard to bolt the oil pump on....The last thing I do before I fire the engine is spin that shaft to prime the oil system and lube everything and then I just stick in the distributor and fire the engine.I wonder if these guys even primed the oil system?..Hopefully they put lots of assembly lube on everything.One minutes worth of running time with no lube ,I hope everything is alright but I'd be very concerned.------------------
68 J-Code,Sprint,306 4 speed,4.11s 13.69@101...............
66 coupe 289 4 speed, 3.20 cruiser http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/MembersPics/mustangboy.html http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/MembersPics/mustangboy2.html [This message has been edited by mustangboy (edited 12-11-2005).]
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Jake11
Gearhead Posts: 207
From: Banning,Ca,USA
Registered: Oct 2005
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posted 12-11-2005 11:37 PM
Thats bad news. Hope it turns out ok.
(I would be pissed) I would hit them up
for a set of main and rod bearings, than
for the labor to have somebody "competent"
replace them. If you start and run an engine
with zero oil pressure, it might run now,
but without looking at the bearings, you
don't know. How long?
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