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Author Topic:   wheel cylinders
68 Coop
Gearhead

Posts: 1933
From: Mesquite, NV. 89024
Registered: Oct 2004

posted 07-07-2005 10:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 68 Coop   Click Here to Email 68 Coop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Was spraying the rear for the leaf change, when I noticed fluid on the inside of the back tires. Wheel cylinders are the first thing that comes to mind. I call the Zone, and they have 3 different sizes ranging from 50 to 10 bucks. What gives??? Why different sizes for different wheels, and what the hell is the "bore size" he kept asking me about??? Help if you can, and thanks for the time and info.

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William
68 Coupe
289
Edelbrock 600
Performer Intake
Headers/X-pipe/Flowmaster 30's
C4
8"rear/2:79gears
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67stang
Gearhead

Posts: 2407
From: Panama City, FL
Registered: Jun 99

posted 07-07-2005 10:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 67stang   Click Here to Email 67stang     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Make sure it is not axle grease... The axle seals could be bad...

Bore size for wheel cylinders would be how big the piston is, I believe. The larger the piston the more stopping power to be had...

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adragon8u
Gearhead

Posts: 5153
From: Oceano, Ca. member# 2895
Registered: Mar 2003

posted 07-07-2005 11:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for adragon8u   Click Here to Email adragon8u     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just replaced my front ones. If yours are like mine, they'll be the higher priced ones.
Biggest difference with mine was the mounting. Some backing plates accomodate a round opening and some have a flat spot on the bottom. It helps to know which one you have.

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"It's better to have loved a short girl,
Then never to have loved a tall"
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68 Coop
Gearhead

Posts: 1933
From: Mesquite, NV. 89024
Registered: Oct 2004

posted 07-07-2005 11:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 68 Coop   Click Here to Email 68 Coop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks guys, it's Ok for now stopping wise. How should I check for axle seals??? I want to do all 4 wheels when I do them, but if it's a seal I will wait till later. Thanks for the replies.

------------------
William
68 Coupe
289
Edelbrock 600
Performer Intake
Headers/X-pipe/Flowmaster 30's
C4
8"rear/2:79gears
"Restomod in Progress"

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Toronado3800
Gearhead

Posts: 927
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 07-08-2005 01:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Toronado3800     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I like to take my bad part with me to the part store. If they have the parts on hand then you can compare. Of course luck plays a role. One day my Toronado starter went bad, I started the Mustang and it didn't sound right rolling over. So I turn off the Mustang at the bottom of the driveway so I can hear the noise again. Ooopps, just a grunt, its Autozone starter was bad. Car was kinda heavy to push back to the garage.

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68 Coop
Gearhead

Posts: 1933
From: Mesquite, NV. 89024
Registered: Oct 2004

posted 07-08-2005 07:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 68 Coop   Click Here to Email 68 Coop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I checked the MC, and it was low. The front was lower than the back, so I topped both sides off, and it seems to stop a little better now too. Anyway, I guess that's the problem, I'll know more when I ger the wheels off for a better look. Thanks for the replies, they are greatly appreciated.

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William
68 Coupe
289
Edelbrock 600
Performer Intake
Headers/X-pipe/Flowmaster 30's
C4
8"rear/2:79gears
"Restomod in Progress"

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Scott H
Gearhead

Posts: 326
From: Chicago area
Registered: Mar 2005

posted 07-08-2005 07:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott H   Click Here to Email Scott H     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If you are leaking brake fluid you should fix it ASAP. If it just started you might get lucky and maybe it hasn't ruined your brake shoes yet. When you pull off the wheel and drum you'll see how wet or dry everything is inside. Aerosol brake cleaner should dry out most of it. Since you're working on the back end with the leaf springs anyway you should go ahead and change out the two rear wheel cylinders and bleed the back brakes. The fronts can wait a while if they aren't leaking.

The three different bore sizes are probably for either a 6 cylinder with 9" drums, a small block v8 with 10" drums, or a big block car that also had 10" drums but came with bigger brakes.

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68 Coop
Gearhead

Posts: 1933
From: Mesquite, NV. 89024
Registered: Oct 2004

posted 07-08-2005 07:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 68 Coop   Click Here to Email 68 Coop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks Scott, I'm leaning hard to that being the problem, but I think it's only the drivers side. I will do the back for now, and do the front when I do those bushings and springs. Thanks for the time.

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William
68 Coupe
289
Edelbrock 600
Performer Intake
Headers/X-pipe/Flowmaster 30's
C4
8"rear/2:79gears
"Restomod in Progress"

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sigtauenus
Gearhead

Posts: 2508
From: Va Beach
Registered: Jun 2000

posted 07-08-2005 10:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for sigtauenus   Click Here to Email sigtauenus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
William, a couple things. When you pull off you brake drum, you'll be able to tell right away if its the axel or the wheel cylinder: pop the rubber dust boot on either end of the brake cylinder and if there is fluid in the dust boot, that's your culprit. That is not a seal, there is another seal that fits in the bore of the cylinder on either side to seal the fluid, so there should not be fluid in the dust boot on any of your brake cylinders.

When you take the brake cylinder off, pop off the dust boot from one side and push in on the other side to push the piston out of the side with the dust boot off. The back (flat) side of the piston will have the piston bore stamped in it. Should be something like 11/16 or 7/8, don't recall off-hand.

Your brake cylinder is $10.99 per side at Autozone with a 3 month warranty. I don't think they do lifetime warranties on brake cylinders anymore, but that might be the $50 one if it is available.

Like Scott was saying, better get on this quick, as the brake fluid will cause your brake pads to disintegrate, any piece that got wet if allowed to soak through will literally crumble apart.

If you aren't completely strapped for cash, I'd replace both brake cylinders, pads if required, and self-adjuster cables while you are in there. The rest of the hardware should be in good shape, but if anything looks questionable, a holddown kit (includes the "nails" that go bad next) only like 3 or 4 bucks each and does both sides.

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68 Coop
Gearhead

Posts: 1933
From: Mesquite, NV. 89024
Registered: Oct 2004

posted 07-08-2005 12:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 68 Coop   Click Here to Email 68 Coop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
WOW! Thanks Sam, I didn't realize it was that serious. Last thing I need is to be stopping (or not) with 2 wheels. OK, I'll drive it to work, then take them both off and replace them. I just hope they have them.

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William
68 Coupe
289
Edelbrock 600
Performer Intake
Headers/X-pipe/Flowmaster 30's
C4
8"rear/2:79gears
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sigtauenus
Gearhead

Posts: 2508
From: Va Beach
Registered: Jun 2000

posted 07-08-2005 01:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sigtauenus   Click Here to Email sigtauenus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
William, I didn't mean to imply that your brake shoes will fall apart this afternoon, just wanted to emphasize the consequences of not taking care of it as soon as you can.

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68 Coop
Gearhead

Posts: 1933
From: Mesquite, NV. 89024
Registered: Oct 2004

posted 07-08-2005 01:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 68 Coop   Click Here to Email 68 Coop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I realize that Sam, but now thinking back when I was trying to fix a tire rub, I remember swapping the wheel to the other side, and it was a little wet then. I just blew it off that night, but knew it would become an issue soon. I want to take the tires off and get it again with the bolt spray, just to know it's done good before the leaf swap. Thanks for the info.

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68 Coop
Gearhead

Posts: 1933
From: Mesquite, NV. 89024
Registered: Oct 2004

posted 07-08-2005 03:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 68 Coop   Click Here to Email 68 Coop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey guys, couple of questions here about this: Can I gravity bleed the lines after the swap???
Should I run it out of fluid in the MC, what is the best way to fill and bleed it, or whatever it is I will have to do???
I've saw some posts here talking about bench bleeding(???) the MC before they install it. This will be my first cylinder swap, but I have did all 4 wheels with brakes. Might as well change the back one for GP, if they got them. I'll know for sure tonight when I get to work, I'll break eveything down and get the #'s on all of it. Anyway, I start to babble, but if you guys got any info that will make this as easy as possible, I'm open to ALL suggestions. Thanks

------------------
William
68 Coupe
289
Edelbrock 600
Performer Intake
Headers/X-pipe/Flowmaster 30's
C4
8"rear/2:79gears
"Restomod in Progress"

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sigtauenus
Gearhead

Posts: 2508
From: Va Beach
Registered: Jun 2000

posted 07-08-2005 04:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sigtauenus   Click Here to Email sigtauenus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As long as you are not changing out the master cylinder, there is no need to bench bleed it, and don't let it run out or you will have to start over.

If you have never flushed the system, now would be a good time to do so since you are installing some new parts. A 1 quart bottle of DOT 3 fluid will be fine to flush and fill it the system. Autzone sells a handy one-man kit for bleeding, works great for like 5 bucks. I know I'm throwing out $3 here and $5 there and it adds up, so if need be get a buddy or the wife to help and save the 5 bucks for parts.

Rather than type it all out, I cheated with google...
http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/howtobleedbrakesright.htm

Skip down about 3/4 of the way to Bleeding Process if you've never done this.

The bleeding process is explained in the link above. If your brake system hasn't been flushed in a long time, you probably have water and rust particles floating around which will ruin your new brake cylinders. Follow the instructions for bleeding at the passenger rear corner and continue bleeding the brakes until you get nice clean clear fluid out with no bubbles. Be sure to top off the master cylinder several times while doing this to keep it from going dry. Repeat at your driver rear, and then go ahead and go to passenger front and driver front. Once all four corners have clean fluid coming out, no bubbles, top off the master cylinder and continue with the instructions as above.

BTW, front compartment of the master cylinder goes to the rear brakes and vice versa.

I forgot to tell you, as soon as you start bleeding the brakes and if you get nasty looking fluid coming out, it will be obvious if you need to just bleed them or do a flush.

[This message has been edited by sigtauenus (edited 07-08-2005).]

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68 Coop
Gearhead

Posts: 1933
From: Mesquite, NV. 89024
Registered: Oct 2004

posted 07-08-2005 05:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 68 Coop   Click Here to Email 68 Coop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, it wouldn't be a stretch to say it's not been changed, EVER! I have had the car for 6 years, and it sit for the first 4 years with just being started whenever I could get it to. I know for sure the fluid is toast, but thought I would do it all at once, when I did the brakes again. Thanks for all the time and info on this Sam, I'll keep this going till it's done.

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William
68 Coupe
289
Edelbrock 600
Performer Intake
Headers/X-pipe/Flowmaster 30's
C4
8"rear/2:79gears
"Restomod in Progress"

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68 Coop
Gearhead

Posts: 1933
From: Mesquite, NV. 89024
Registered: Oct 2004

posted 07-09-2005 12:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 68 Coop   Click Here to Email 68 Coop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I got the drums off, and the pass side looks like the grease is coming from behind the axle. The drivers side was wet with fluid all over the cylinder, so I know that one is shot. My delimma: Should I just do both cylinders, brakes and the axle seal on both sides??? I need drums too, but it's gonna be hard to swing ALL this, after spending 325.00 on the leafs. What would be the most logical way to go to do this??? My brakes don't look bad, considering the shape of the drums, so I could wait a couple weeks for those if it is safe enough??? Also, on the seals, I've never done them, so any help will be appreciated. I have plenty to do tonight with the leaf swap, and I didn't buy nothing but brake cleaner, so I could get everything clean enough to figure out where it was leaking. Anyway, I'm babbleingagain, but if you can help, I do thank you very much.

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William
68 Coupe
289
Edelbrock 600
Performer Intake
Headers/X-pipe/Flowmaster 30's
C4
8"rear/2:79gears
"Restomod in Progress"

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68mustang351w
Gearhead

Posts: 291
From: San Diego, Ca
Registered: Sep 2004

posted 07-09-2005 01:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 68mustang351w   Click Here to Email 68mustang351w     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would do it all except maybe the drums unless they are out of spec. No reason to drive around with a less than adequate braking system. At least thats my humble opinion. Good luck... David F.

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sigtauenus
Gearhead

Posts: 2508
From: Va Beach
Registered: Jun 2000

posted 07-09-2005 03:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sigtauenus   Click Here to Email sigtauenus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, while you have everything apart it makes sense to do those axle seals, and well, well, well, they are $2.79 each at the Zone.

While you have the brakes apart, remove the 4 nuts that hold the backing plate bolts. You get to the nuts through the hole in the axle plate the wheel studs are mounted on. Just spin it around until the hole lines up on each nut...

After you have all four bolts out, you can try hammering a 5/16 rod through the backing plate bolt holes against the axle and also putting the drum on backwards and 1, having it tight and beating on it with a hammer or 2, having it loose and using it as a slide hammer. I've seen some other recommendations on here but don't recall what they are off-hand.

Once you break the bearing loose the axle will slide right out, and then the bearing is there to be removed. I think you can rent a seal remover from Autozone, or buy one if you don't have one, they aren't too expensive. A screwdriver and hammer also work but require more time and profanities.

As for the wheel bearings, you have to have a machine shop change them for you, so besides the cost of new bearings, you're looking at $10-20 a side to have them changed.

I recognize you're getting into a lot of "well, since I'm here, I might as well do this" and the price of your project is quickly spiralling out of control.

If you have the funds to do wheel bearings now, do it, if not, it can wait. And when the time comes, you'll already know how to take the axles out and it will be a quicker job for you then.

If money is an issue, I would say the only thing you absolutely have to replace right now is that driver side wheel cylinder. Everything else is more a preventative "while I'm here" to save you time over doing it the next time, and suggestions for stuff that are common problems (like those self-adjuster cables).

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Bob429
Gearhead

Posts: 413
From: Watervliet,MI,USA
Registered: Jun 99

posted 07-09-2005 06:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob429   Click Here to Email Bob429     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Make sure to check the threaded part of the new cylinders. The new ones are sometimes threaded deeper than the original and the original brake line threads end up being too short. You can buy an adaptor for this or a new brake line. I opted for new line.
On the axle seal, I like to put a little bit of sealer around the seal before I put them in This helps to seal any imperfections that may cause a leak. Make sure you tap it in flush. A Little bit of sealer on the axle to flange and axle to backing plate isn't a bad idea either. Good luck

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Bob
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[This message has been edited by Bob429 (edited 07-09-2005).]

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