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Author
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Topic: Here's a question you don't hear often...
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 42624
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99
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posted 03-03-2005 05:22 PM
   
Have any of you ever considered adding high performance {relatively speaking} catalytic convertors to your street machine in an effort to voluntary reduce the emissions and get rid of the classic fuel rich smell of a classic car?------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 Open
'70 Mustang Convertible 250 I6/3 speed/2.79 Open
'72 Mustang Sprint Hardtop 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Loc
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip [This message has been edited by SteveLaRiviere (edited 03-03-2005).]
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68 Coop
Gearhead Posts: 777
From: Mesquite, NV.
Registered: Oct 2004
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posted 03-03-2005 05:27 PM
From what I've seen on the programs I watch, they aren't that bad. I would consider it, as long as they were bolt on, they burn out just like mufflers right???------------------
William
68 Coupe
"Project Under Construction"
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 42624
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99
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posted 03-03-2005 05:31 PM
Not if they are built right. New cars get a couple hundred thousand miles on them, and modern designs aren't nearly as restrictive as the old pellet designs.------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 Open
'70 Mustang Convertible 250 I6/3 speed/2.79 Open
'72 Mustang Sprint Hardtop 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Loc
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
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SkinnyMan
Journeyman Posts: 54
From: Tupelo, MS - USA
Registered: Jan 2005
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posted 03-03-2005 05:38 PM
quote:
Originally posted by SteveLaRiviere:
Not if they are built right. New cars get a couple hundred thousand miles on them, and modern designs aren't nearly as restrictive as the old pellet designs.
I have thought about it. The high flow cats ain't cheap. Also, you have to have (I think) a heat shield to keep from toasting the carpet and padding in the passenger or trunk comparments. ------------------
SkinnyMan
Tupelo, MS Thank you, Thank you very much!
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69 Sportsroof
Gearhead Posts: 1849
From: Valley, Alabama, USA
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 03-03-2005 05:45 PM
I've always heard that converters dont die - they're murdered... by the owners, that is. Seems if you run a rich mixture you'll burn them up in no time. I have no idea how accurate this is but it may be a reason why you dont see it more often.
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66fstbck
Gearhead Posts: 274
From: Worthington, Pa. USA 16262
Registered: Feb 2000
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posted 03-03-2005 05:53 PM
NO !!!!  ------------------
Alan
66 Fastback
99 GT Convertible
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whiteknight289
Gearhead Posts: 1171
From: Wheaton, IL, USA
Registered: Mar 2004
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posted 03-03-2005 06:23 PM
I had a customer with a 70 Boss 302 that had cats put on, supposedly it was the only way that shop could get it to pass emissions. The sad part is that the car only has to pass the standards for the year it was manufactured, and with proper tuning I really don't think he needed those cats.
Scott
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Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 18413
From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 03-03-2005 06:41 PM
No I really can't see how my 65 that see's about 2000-3000 miles a year. Comes anywhere near the amout of emissions the city bus's do. Or a lot of the junker's running around town. Not classics either, but late model's not taken care of.
I guess if there was some kind of tax credit or rebate system. I might do it ?
Smoking Rubber doesn't cause cancer! 
------------------
oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs65 coupe 351w C4 Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics [This message has been edited by Fastymz (edited 03-03-2005).]
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FoMoGo
Gearhead Posts: 131
From: Motor City USA
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted 03-03-2005 07:19 PM
No, I like smell of these old cars. It' one of things that makes these cars fun. The smell of oil & gasoline, the noise, the carburetor, the AM radio, no A/C, the uncomfortable seats all that stuff. It's the gasoline vapors that you smell from the fuel system. Remember the addition of the carbon canister for reducing fuel vapors (hydrocarbons) from being released into the atmosphere.
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dodgestang
Gearhead Posts: 135
From: Cecil County, MD, USA
Registered: Mar 2004
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posted 03-03-2005 08:18 PM
I considered adding 2 high flow cats to my 1997 truck.As I was flatly told that if I deviated from the factory cat setup I would fail emmisions period...even if I produced less emmisions.
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bob6364
Journeyman Posts: 84
From: griswold,ct usa
Registered: Dec 2004
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posted 03-03-2005 09:46 PM
Dodgestang
Don't you want to smack people that come out with that kinda nonsence...lower emissions is lower emissions
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indyphil
Gearhead Posts: 2308
From: Senoia, G.A. USA
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 03-04-2005 08:26 AM
I dont think it will work if your engine has a plain jane carb.
The reason modern cars have fuel injection is for precise (and I mean really precise) air fuel ratio control. Catalytic convertors rely on a perfect stoichiometric air fuel ratio for them to work. the rich idle circuits and bathtub AFR curve from a carb will render the 3 way cat useless in no time.I was taught that the catalyst was only possible with fuel injection, and it upset some efficiency folks who were working on leanburn engines (which cant be used with cats because they are too lean...) Someone may be able to correct me, there may be some carb engines that had cats, but the carbs may have been an electronically controlled unit with an O2 sensor feeding back to keep the air fuel ratio constant? ------------------
'68 coupe, '66 289 C code
engine, edel 600cfm carb, performer intake, dual exhaust http://www.geocities.com/ottouk_77/68mustang.htm
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68 S-code GT
Gearhead Posts: 2325
From: Sayreville, NJ, US
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 03-04-2005 08:51 AM
Pretty sure car came with cats when carbs were still on the cars from the factory (late70s- early 80s).------------------
Ed S. 68 S-code FB GT 4spd(now C6)/3.25 PS PDB
68 J-code(now 289) Cp Sprint"B" C4/3L00-9" PDB PS AC Bla-Bla-Bla
99 F150 XLT Ext/cab, 4X4, 5.4L, 3L55
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Thud
Gearhead Posts: 1243
From: Cumming,Ga.,USofA
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 03-04-2005 09:01 AM
Mustang GT's with manual transmissions had 4-barrel carbs and cats up through '85.------------------
"I only drink to steady my nerves. Sometimes I'm so steady I don't move for months." - W.C. Fields - "I don't care where I sit, as long as I get fed." Calvin Trillin Dwayne M&M Member #18
Son of Smurf
'94 Lightning #942 of 4007
'67 Mustang Coupe
'70 Mach1
'75 Cougar
'65 Galaxie 500 + parts car
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Hemikiller
Gearhead Posts: 576
From: Killingworth, CT
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 03-04-2005 11:08 AM
I'd personally never add cats to an early Mustang. The cars weren't designed to accept a cat under the floorboards and have limited room. Adding a cat that is running in the 1000* range is asking for a nice fire. I'm sure many remember the "hump" for the cat in the floors of the 80's F-body cars.
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mustangboy
Gearhead Posts: 774
From: Ont, Canada
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 03-04-2005 02:17 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Hemikiller:
I'd personally never add cats to an early Mustang. The cars weren't designed to accept a cat under the floorboards and have limited room. Adding a cat that is running in the 1000* range is asking for a nice fire. I'm sure many remember the "hump" for the cat in the floors of the 80's F-body cars.
I agree.The older mustangs barely have enough room for a decent exhaust system so adding heat shields would be a pain in the a$$.------------------
1968 mustang j-code sprint.13.69@101 306cu.in, stock ported heads,weiand exellerator,650 holley DP,hedman hedders,comp 292 Magnum cam,4-speed,8 inch 4.11 detroit locker http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/MembersPics/mustangboy.html
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DONNIE1
Gearhead Posts: 290
From: conover nc
Registered: Jun 2002
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posted 03-04-2005 02:24 PM
I love the smell of rich fuel burning in the morning.... don't change a thing...d
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74merc
Gearhead Posts: 926
From: Demopolis AL
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 03-06-2005 01:25 AM
1984/85 Oldsmobile Delta 88 had a 307, carb and cats. No O2s...1975 Mavericks and Comets had carbs, cats and airpump. That being said, I agree with above, further modifications are needed for the cats to work properly, and as there is no real benefit to me and it will cost me dearly... No more than I drive the car now, forget it. ------------------
74 Mercury Comet
302, leaking Performer 289 intake, Autolite 4100, Hooker Super Comps
AOD
3:1
My website
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 42624
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99
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posted 03-06-2005 06:35 PM
Cats appeared in 1976, fuel injection only became widespread in the mid eighties, you do the math. ------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 Open
'70 Mustang Convertible 250 I6/3 speed/2.79 Open
'72 Mustang Sprint Hardtop 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Loc
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
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indyphil
Gearhead Posts: 2308
From: Senoia, G.A. USA
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 03-07-2005 11:43 AM
Ok I found a source
http://www.unc.edu/courses/2005spring/envr/251/001/Autos.pdfIf you read down to the section on CATS,(its on page 8 of 10) it explains that Catalysts in the 70's worked to only reduce hydrocarbons But the later CATs - the 3 way CATs that are used today REQUIRE the use of an injection system with a feedback controller (using an O2 sensor) So it boils down to which type of CAT you are talking about, 3-Way or an old Oxydation catalyst? You mentioned Modern designs and high performance designs so I think that you mean a modern 3-way CAT and in that case you wouldnt have enough control over your mixture with a carb... You could always put on an old fashioned Oxydation catalyst from 1976 and clean up some of the HC, but its probably going to come at the expense of some performance? I was not aware that CATS appeared so early (they didnt appear in Europe until the 80's along with fuel injection and unleaded gas)
They still sold leaded gas at most gas stations in England until Jan 2000. I didnt get exposed to the amazing array of smog equipment that you guys did over here. I was exposed to lots of fumes with lead in - that should explain a lot...
------------------
'68 coupe, '66 289 C code
engine, edel 600cfm carb, performer intake, dual exhaust http://www.geocities.com/ottouk_77/68mustang.htm [This message has been edited by indyphil (edited 03-07-2005).]
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indyphil
Gearhead Posts: 2308
From: Senoia, G.A. USA
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 03-07-2005 11:51 AM
I guess it doesnt say what happens if you run too rich or too lean - but I always assumed that it permanently damaged the CAT and reduced its future effectiveness. It does show (on page 9) that running too lean with a 3-way means lots of NOx will be "missed" by the cat - but it doesnt say if thats still a net reduction Vs no CAT at all.------------------
'68 coupe, '66 289 C code
engine, edel 600cfm carb, performer intake, dual exhaust http://www.geocities.com/ottouk_77/68mustang.htm
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n2oMike
Gearhead Posts: 2369
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 03-07-2005 12:00 PM
quote:
Originally posted by SteveLaRiviere:
Cats appeared in 1976, fuel injection only became widespread in the mid eighties, you do the math.
Cats and unleaded gas appeared in 1975.  ------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220
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GTRocks
Gearhead Posts: 3600
From: Lusby, MD
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 03-07-2005 12:42 PM
quote:
Originally posted by dodgestang:
I considered adding 2 high flow cats to my 1997 truck.As I was flatly told that if I deviated from the factory cat setup I would fail emmisions period...even if I produced less emmisions.
In Cecil County?!?! Hell, these guys around here are lucky if they can tell if your exhaust is even hooked up. Yours must be getting better training!! Who told you that? Sounds really suspect to me....I'm not aware of any laws in MD that would prevent this. My answer.....NO!
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